Wednesday, September 01, 2004

Feedback on the Nyanza Essay

Onyango Oloo's recent essay on Poverty and Underdevelopment in the Nyanza Province of Kenya has generated a number of responses from various online forums like rcbowen, mashada, mambogani, the nation forum etc:


Here is a sampling:

From: "Papa F"

Date: 28 Aug 11:31
To: "onyango oloo"
Subject: Underdevelopment in Nyanza

(also posted on the rcbowen site)

To Oloo.. on Economic Underdevelopment in Nyanza

From: Papa F - Sat, Aug 28, 2:23 PM

Onyango Oloo,

This is a "straightforward" yet "complicated" issue.
It is straightforward on the question of
underdevelopment of infrastructure, industry and
educational opportunities.

It is complicated on the issue of "re-ivestment" and
development of "micro-industries" and "small and medium"
businesses.

The infrastructure question is simple and straight
forward. Luo-Nyanza has been "punished" by succesive
Kenyan governments for the politicians being viewed
as "anti government" and "non-conformist". In this
regard the question is why whole communities would
be denied their right of the "National Cake" because
of being viewed as rebelliuous. It may be true that
there were "Sons of Luoland" that were pro-Moi or
pro-Kenyatta, but many of these did not survive long
enough to translate their sycophancy into a following
of the prevailing governments.

The irony of it is that Gusii-Nyanza a nd Western
Province did not feature any better than Luo Nyanza
on the infrastructure despite having many succesive
"pro-prevailing government" political heavyweights.
Let me posit that if Gusii-Nyanza has made any headways
in maendeleo it purely from the fact that the area
had agricultural potential for TEA and COFFEE. This
coupled with sheer hard work and enterprise has brought
Gusii Nyanza to where it is.

Examining the question of educational opportunities
for example. In Luo Nyanza I will posit that apart
from Kanga High School (built by the pro-Moi Oyugi)
the school sending anybody to University are the same
ones that were built by the missionaries, colonialists
and the efforts of Jaramogi Oginga Odinga and Tom
Mboya after Uhuru. The list of secondary schools
in 1965 having impact are the same ones having an
impact today. Schools built by Harambee Spirit do
exist but their impact is not significa nt.

Gusii-Nyanza experienced an explosion of the
Harambee movement secondary schools to unbelievable
levels. In the early times these secondary schools
had little impact with massive failures and exam
cheating at mega scales. But with time, crackdown
on exam cheating and other factors in question, the
schools in Kisii and Nyamira District had an impact.
If I may add these schools have had an impact in
sending Abagusii students to the US, well beyond
the proportional representation of Absgusii to Kenya's
population. We need to commend these efforts, rather
than deride the community and "blame Nyanchae" or
"attribute to Nyachae" efforts of a community achieved
without government support.

On Agro-Industry, one of the major undoing of Luo
Nyanza CAN NEITHER be blamed on the government NOR
the LUO people. Yes, I am talking about the collapse
of COTTON and TEXTILES industry ..ie KICOMI. Like
Mumias Sugar Company KICOMI had an impact not just
on factory workers, but also farmers, transporters
cotton ginneries. When Japanese designed synthetics
took over textiles industry, this had an impact on
cotton industry. The loser was NOT JUST LUO-NYANZA
but the whole of the United States Southern states
were impacted. With cotton gone as an industry
Luo Nyanza only had sugarcane left as the major cash
crop.

Gusii land on the other hand benefitted from the
expansion of coffee industry in the district in the
1960's and 1970's, but better still from the
expansion of TEA INDUSTRY in the 1970's and early 80's.
The TEA BOOM is in my opinion the GOLDEN ECONOMIC
ERA of Gusii Land. It is TEA and COFFEE returns that
fuelled the expansion of educational opportunities
in Gusii Land, particularly the Harambee movement,
as well as the "export" of the "sons and daughters"
of Omogusii to India and the US for further stu dies.
The Abagusii responded well to the new Tea factories
but the prices of tea (unlike cotton) have been
steady, while coffe also experienced TOTAL COLLAPSE,
not because of MOI (100%) but because of the slump
in world prices (70%), and corruption in the
cooperative societies movement, and government neglect
(30%).

Let me now compare the performance of sugar-cane
industries in Nyanza with say Western Province.
Western Province's ONLY succesful sugar indutry
is Mumias Sugar Company. Its success is mainly
due to HIGH RAINFALL in the old Kakamega District
as well as the right investment policies from Day 1.
The sugar industry built an infra structure that
had an impact on small scale agricultural production,
stimulating jobs in transportation, road infrastructure,
small scale mechanics outfit, and later schools.

Western Province's other sugar industries (Nzoia
for example) have only fuelled pov erty (monoculture)
reducing production of food crop and enriching
select few politically connected corrupt mandarins
(most related by marriages).

Of Luo Nyanza's sugar industries ONLY SONY had
an impact on small scale farmers. Chemelil has done
well, and Miwani and Muhoroni have obsolete
machinery and minimal impact. If Muhoroni and
Miwani had an impact, it the same impact they had
in the eearly 1960's. The Nyanza Sugar zone is
bedevilled by low rainfall, large scale farming
and dominance by the same people (Mehta Family
and either the Manji or Madhvani families).

The sugar belt in Nyanza is also a series of large
scale farms that may be owned by "early arrival"
political heavyweights (the Odingas, the Omamos,
the Aburas), and "post Uhuru Tycoon" families, who
own the majority of the land. Others in the zone
are farm workers who work at the behest of the few.
The "heavy movers" who dominate e verything (including
siasa) have very little initiatives (except maybe
two mollasses factories, one in production and the
other a political symbol).

If micro-industries have featured their impact is
only in the Kisumu urban metropolis, and most of the
micro-industries are owned by Kenyan Asians. Despite
criticism we wtill have to commend this community
for creating employment opportunities (Mhindi Mbaya
Kiatu Chake ni Dawa).

On this issue I completely differ with the Marxist-
Leninist approach where wananchi would have to wait
for Central Government and Central Planning to invest
into infra-structural and industrial development.
Central Planning and Central government will tend to
favor whoever holds the political strings in the
political center. Hence when a Moi is in power, that
is the only chance to develop an "Eldoret International
Airport", without a vision, prior studies etc etc.

Th e challenge to professionals in Kenya (not just
Nyanza) is where, how and when should professionals
in the community invest in infrastructure, capital
development and micro-industry in their home areas.
Ndugu Oloo, the question now is whether Luo
professionals and entrepreneurs should view themselves
as Kenyans first, or Luo-Homeboys first. The question
my brother is "If a Kamau or Ngige puts up a Nails
Factory in Limuru, is he a Kenyan first? or a Gikuyu
first?". An even tougher question is, if a Wafula
puts up a major bakery in Kitale, is he guilty of
favoring his own?

Now unfortunately entrepreneurship is not one of
the central pillars of Marxism (ask Deng Xiao Ping),
but China has greatly benefitted from opening up
its country to investment. For Nyanza, it biggest
assett is water (not rainfall). How do we explain
the failure of Kisumu Breweries (a water based
industry?). OK the so called "Luo Kik uyu-phobes" will
point fingers at Matiba and Co. as saboteurs. Suppose
we agree with them (that Kikuyus, Kalenjins and Luhyias
do not have the welfare and interest of Luos at heart)
who should take the "Steering wheel"? (In addition
to the already existing Wahindis, who are no doubt
the biggest inestors in Nyanza).

Right now the next biggest entrepreneurs in Nyanza
are the Abagusii. So succesful have the Abagusii been
as capitalists that they are giving the Agikuyu a run
for their money in the matatu industry in Nairobi, and
giving the Kalenjins a run in Eldoret, Kitale, Kericho
etc. In Kisumu Town the Abagusii have taken over
maize and vegetable trade, and created a transportation
industry from "vacuum" (I mean without political
connection).

The question of entrepreneurship relates to personal
values (mostly sometimnes reduced to stereotypes).
Hence where would a priority be?

Micro-busin ess development IMHO will not wait
anymore for Central Government rescue. Hence JB Orengo
's argument about it being the Central Government's
duty to invest in infrastructure would only make
sense if a government sense to development would be
unbiased. But even in all countries government
based maendeleo will ALWAYS BE BIASED. People cannot
afford to wait for the government any more!!!!!!!!!!!!

To me politicians are the biggest "misleaders" on
these issue. Hence for example while Peter Okondo was
Kenya's largest real estate heavyweight, his people
of Budalang'i contiued to languish in the poorest
houses in the country. One would argue that Habenga
had no "buyers" for his opulent houses. But today
if you go to Budalang'i you will see "Red Tiled
Loresho type" houses all along the lake shore, all
built by individual efforts by "Sons of the Soil".

In the same vein Alego or Gem, with the highest
numbe r of "PhD's per square km" continues to wallow
in poverty (mainly Alego, I am not an authorty on Gem).

It is my humble opinion that our politicians have
focused on the "blame and complain" style of politics
and lost an opportunity to engage their own in efforts
to invest in development. Nyanza has the wherewithall,
potential, manpower and brains to develop and
extra-governmental development strategy.

I contrast this with Kasai in DR Congo. The Kasai
people, having been ignored by succesive governments,
and having been considered as the "wrong tribe" went
ahead and developed their home area without government
assitance. Through individual and community efforts
they have built excellent hospitals and even a
university.

Nandis, not favorites during the Moi regime, still
have the sencond highest number of secondary schools
in the counytry. Bungoma, ignored by the colonial
and post-colonial govern ments has the HIGHEST NUMBER
of secondary schools in Kenya.

And in that regard I agree with you that the mollasses
factory in Kisumu is an excellent example (corruption
claims aside) and symbol that ONLY the HOMEBOYS will
lead the initiative for development in a neglected
area. In short who knows maybe corruption was involved
in reviving the factory, but corruption was always
there and the factory rotted. Meanwhile Agro-Chemical
Mollasses company in Muhoroni has faired VERY WELL.
The future of sigar cane as a cash crop is in
alternative products and NOT sugar. If handled well
the mollasses factory may be a step in the right
direction. In itself the factory will not have a
a major impact, but as a phenomenon (of ONLY HOMEBOYS
WILL LEAD THE RESCUE) it is a step in the right
direction. But the questions of corruption will not
"evaporate" and if criminal intrigue was involved those
culpable may have to f ace the music.

My bottom line: Nyanza solutions will have to come
from Nyanza, the enabling frame work will have to
be Kenyan (not Nyanza alone), but without the right
political will, and a development oriented political
leadership. NO CENTRAL GOVERNMENT (whether it has
10 LUO cabinet ministers) will bail out Nyanza. The
solution lies within the "Sons of the Soil" grabbing
the revitalization initiative.

NIMESEMA

Papa F

Papa F:

Thanks for your feedback and my apologies in not getting back to you sooner.

Let me do that now.


Papa F says:

“To Oloo.. on Economic Underdevelopment in Nyanza

From: Papa F - Sat, Aug 28, 2:23 PM

Onyango Oloo,

“This is a "straightforward" yet "complicated" issue.
It is straightforward on the question of
underdevelopment of infrastructure, industry and
educational opportunities.”

And Oloo Says:
I agree.

Papa F says:
“It is complicated on the issue of "re-investment" and
development of "micro-industries" and "small and medium"
businesses.”


Oloo Says:
I agree in principle and may differ when it comes to implementation.

Papa F says:
“The infrastructure question is simple and straight
forward. Luo-Nyanza has been "punished" by successive
Kenyan governments for the politicians being viewed
as "anti government" and "non-conformist". In this
regard the question is why whole communities would
be denied their right of the "National Cake" because
of being viewed as rebellious. It may be true that
there were "Sons of Luoland" that were pro-Moi or
pro-Kenyatta, but many of these did not survive long
enough to translate their sycophancy into a following
of the prevailing governments.”


Oloo Says:
Here is where I start having some problems with your approach, Papa. I object to the term “Luo Nyanza” because I consider it not only a tribal term, but one of the ways in which this region of Kenya has been micro-balkanized based on perceived and presumably competing ethno-elitist interests in the province. Is a Gusii businessman thriving in Kisumu “Siti” part of Luo Nyanza or Gusii Nyanza? How about a Luo woman trader in Kisii Town? Remember that even in this system of rewards and punishments there are nuances. For instance, the Odinga family held on to the cylinder making monopoly in Nairobi during all the years of political estrangement- although some people may argue that this was in Nairobi, not Nyanza.

Papa F says:
“The irony of it is that Gusii-Nyanza and Western
Province did not feature any better than Luo Nyanza
on the infrastructure despite having many succesive
"pro-prevailing government" political heavyweights.
Let me posit that if Gusii-Nyanza has made any headways
in maendeleo it purely from the fact that the area
had agricultural potential for TEA and COFFEE. This
coupled with sheer hard work and enterprise has brought
Gusii Nyanza to where it is.”


Oloo Says:
That is a statement of fact, so no arguments there for me.

Papa F says:
“Examining the question of educational opportunities
for example. In Luo Nyanza I will posit that apart
from Kanga High School (built by the pro-Moi Oyugi)
the school sending anybody to University are the same
ones that were built by the missionaries, colonialists
and the efforts of Jaramogi Oginga Odinga and Tom
Mboya after Uhuru. The list of secondary schools
in 1965 having impact are the same ones having an
impact today. Schools built by Harambee Spirit do
exist but their impact is not significant.

“Gusii-Nyanza experienced an explosion of the
Harambee movement secondary schools to unbelievable
levels. In the early times these secondary schools
had little impact with massive failures and exam
cheating at mega scales. But with time, crackdown
on exam cheating and other factors in question, the
schools in Kisii and Nyamira District had an impact.
If I may add these schools have had an impact in
sending Abagusii students to the US, well beyond
the proportional representation of Abagusii to Kenya's
population. We need to commend these efforts, rather
than deride the community and "blame Nyachae" or
"attribute to Nyachae" efforts of a community achieved
without government support.”


Oloo Says:
I must plead ignorance here. I took these paragraphs as an opportunity to learn something new.

Papa F says:
“On Agro-Industry, one of the major undoing of Luo
Nyanza CAN NEITHER be blamed on the government NOR
the LUO people. Yes, I am talking about the collapse
of COTTON and TEXTILES industry ..ie KICOMI. Like
Mumias Sugar Company KICOMI had an impact not just
on factory workers, but also farmers, transporters
cotton ginneries. When Japanese designed synthetics
took over textiles industry, this had an impact on
cotton industry. The loser was NOT JUST LUO-NYANZA
but the whole of the United States Southern states
were impacted. With cotton gone as an industry
Luo Nyanza only had sugarcane left as the major cash
crop.”


Oloo Says:
While I concur with your view that wider global factors have to be considered in looking at the paltry efforts in Nyanza’s agro-industry, I must once again object to your “segregationist” appellation of “Luo Nyanza” for the same reasons cited above.

Papa F says:
“Gusii land on the other hand benefited from the
expansion of coffee industry in the district in the
1960's and 1970's, but better still from the
expansion of TEA INDUSTRY in the 1970's and early 80's.
The TEA BOOM is in my opinion the GOLDEN ECONOMIC
ERA of Gusii Land. It is TEA and COFFEE returns that
fuelled the expansion of educational opportunities
in Gusii Land, particularly the Harambee movement,
as well as the "export" of the "sons and daughters"
of Omogusii to India and the US for further studies.
The Abagusii responded well to the new Tea factories
but the prices of tea (unlike cotton) have been
steady, while coffee also experienced TOTAL COLLAPSE,
not because of MOI (100%) but because of the slump
in world prices (70%), and corruption in the
cooperative societies movement, and government neglect
(30%).”


Oloo Says:

I will just respond with one of my infernal anecdotes. One of Martin Shikuku’s lieutenants in Kisa Location was a guy we called “Mister Okwaro” one of those bilingual Luhyias who lived, like me, on the cusp of the Nyanza/Western border. He used to be the headmaster and proprietor of Luanda Dudi Secondary School which was a private school. At one point more than 50% of the student population was from the old Kisii District. I am talking about the period 1969- 1976.

Papa F says:
“Let me now compare the performance of sugar-cane
industries in Nyanza with say Western Province.
Western Province's ONLY succesful sugar industry
is Mumias Sugar Company. Its success is mainly
due to HIGH RAINFALL in the old Kakamega District
as well as the right investment policies from Day 1.
The sugar industry built an infra structure that
had an impact on small scale agricultural production,
stimulating jobs in transportation, road infrastructure,
small scale mechanics outfit, and later schools.

“Western Province's other sugar industries (Nzoia
for example) have only fuelled poverty (monoculture)
reducing production of food crop and enriching
select few politically connected corrupt mandarins
(most related by marriages).

“Of Luo Nyanza's sugar industries ONLY SONY had
an impact on small scale farmers. Chemelil has done
well, and Miwani and Muhoroni have obsolete
machinery and minimal impact. If Muhoroni and
Miwani had an impact, it the same impact they had
in the eearly 1960's. The Nyanza Sugar zone is
bedevilled by low rainfall, large scale farming
and dominance by the same people (Mehta Family
and either the Manji or Madhvani families).

“The sugar belt in Nyanza is also a series of large
scale farms that may be owned by "early arrival"
political heavyweights (the Odingas, the Omamos,
the Aburas), and "post Uhuru Tycoon" families, who
own the majority of the land. Others in the zone
are farm workers who work at the behest of the few.
The "heavy movers" who dominate everything (including
siasa) have very little initiatives (except maybe
two molasses factories, one in production and the
other a political symbol).”


Oloo Says:
I have no real problems with the above description and analysis except perhaps to emphasize that we have locate this regional picture within the context of the overall continental and international situation.

Papa F says:
“If micro-industries have featured their impact is
only in the Kisumu urban metropolis, and most of the
micro-industries are owned by Kenyan Asians. Despite
criticism we wtill have to commend this community
for creating employment opportunities (Mhindi Mbaya
Kiatu Chake ni Dawa).”


Oloo Says:
I am writing on this issue so I will pass over in silence on this paragraph.

Papa F says:

“On this issue I completely differ with the Marxist-
Leninist approach where wananchi would have to wait
for Central Government and Central Planning to invest
into infra-structural and industrial development.
Central Planning and Central government will tend to
favor whoever holds the political strings in the
political center. Hence when a Moi is in power, that
is the only chance to develop an "Eldoret International
Airport", without a vision, prior studies etc etc.”


Oloo Says:

With all due respect, Papa F, what you have presented above is a CARICATURE of the Marxist-Leninist approach. In the first place, there is NO SUCH THING as THE Marxist approach because those of us who subscribe to this ideology operate from two positions- the concrete analysis of concrete situations and two, using Marxism as a GUIDE rather than a BLUEPRINT or TEMPLATE. In this connection I will refer you to the innovative measures being taken by both Cuba and Vietnam in pursuing national development.

Papa F says:
“The challenge to professionals in Kenya (not just
Nyanza) is where, how and when should professionals
in the community invest in infrastructure, capital
development and micro-industry in their home areas.”


Oloo Says:
Papa, this issue goes beyond professionals- it embraces very broad sectors of society.

Papa F says:

“Ndugu Oloo, the question now is whether Luo
professionals and entrepreneurs should view themselves
as Kenyans first, or Luo-Homeboys first. The question
my brother is "If a Kamau or Ngige puts up a Nails
Factory in Limuru, is he a Kenyan first? or a Gikuyu
first?". An even tougher question is, if a Wafula
puts up a major bakery in Kitale, is he guilty of
favoring his own?”

Oloo Says:

That is a FALSE question because it IS NOT the professionals who will and entrepreneurs who are driving motors of economic development- it is the working people. A Kamau, a Ngige, a Wafula or an Odhiambo can put a factory anywhere in Kenya- but without workers in that factory it will just be a building with lots of expensive machinery inside.

Papa F says:
“Now unfortunately entrepreneurship is not one of
the central pillars of Marxism (ask Deng Xiao Ping),
but China has greatly benefited from opening up
its country to investment. For Nyanza, it biggest
asset is water (not rainfall). How do we explain
the failure of Kisumu Breweries (a water based
industry?). OK the so called "Luo Kikuyu-phobes" will
point fingers at Matiba and Co. as saboteurs. Suppose
we agree with them (that Kikuyus, Kalenjins and Luhyias
do not have the welfare and interest of Luos at heart)
who should take the "Steering wheel"? (In addition
to the already existing Wahindis, who are no doubt
the biggest investors in Nyanza).”


Oloo Says:

Actually Papa F you could not have missed the boat more if you had gone to board it in Dudi shopping center where there is no body of water as opposed to say, Sio Port. Deng Xiao Ping came closet to being one of the most ARDENT CHAMPIONS OF CAPITALISM in China. That is why Jiang Qing and the so called Gang of Four hounded him during the Cultural Revolution and you remember he got his revenge after Mao died in 1976- becoming not only the main leader, but the one who ushered in what the Chinese called the Four Modernizations- all anchored in opening up the Chinese economy to the capitalist west. I am not very conversant with the factors that led to the collapse of the Kisumu Breweries so I will refrain from exposing my ignorance.

Papa F says:
“Right now the next biggest entrepreneurs in Nyanza
are the Abagusii. So succesful have the Abagusii been
as capitalists that they are giving the Agikuyu a run
for their money in the matatu industry in Nairobi, and
giving the Kalenjins a run in Eldoret, Kitale, Kericho
etc. In Kisumu Town the Abagusii have taken over
maize and vegetable trade, and created a transportation
industry from "vacuum" (I mean without political
connection).”


Oloo Says:
Papa: is the paragraph a STATEMENT OF FACT or OPINION? What are your sources?

Papa F says:

“The question of entrepreneurship relates to personal
values (mostly sometimes reduced to stereotypes).
Hence where would a priority be?

“Micro-business development IMHO will not wait
anymore for Central Government rescue. Hence JB Orengo’s argument about it being the Central Government's
duty to invest in infrastructure would only make
sense if a government sense to development would be
unbiased. But even in all countries government
based maendeleo will ALWAYS BE BIASED. People cannot
afford to wait for the government any more!!!!!!!!!!!!”


Oloo Says:

Actually, I do not think it is a matter of people waiting for the government at all. If you look at the submissions at Bomas, people are asking for devolution of powers so that they can exercise more local initiative.

Papa F says:
“To me politicians are the biggest "misleaders" on
these issue. Hence for example while Peter Okondo was
Kenya's largest real estate heavyweight, his people
of Budalang'i contiued to languish in the poorest
houses in the country. One would argue that Habenga
had no "buyers" for his opulent houses. But today
if you go to Budalang'i you will see "Red Tiled
Loresho type" houses all along the lake shore, all
built by individual efforts by "Sons of the Soil".

“In the same vein Alego or Gem, with the highest
number of "PhD's per square km" continues to wallow
in poverty (mainly Alego, I am not an authority on Gem).

“It is my humble opinion that our politicians have
focused on the "blame and complain" style of politics
and lost an opportunity to engage their own in efforts
to invest in development. Nyanza has the wherewithall,
potential, manpower and brains to develop and
extra-governmental development strategy.”


Oloo Says:

On politicians I would differ with you to the extent that it is not so much “politicians” and “politics” in the ABSTRACT that we should be concerned about, but rather the particular type of politicians produced in neo-colonial Kenya.

Papa F says:
“I contrast this with Kasai in DR Congo. The Kasai
people, having been ignored by successive governments,
and having been considered as the "wrong tribe" went
ahead and developed their home area without government
assistance. Through individual and community efforts
they have built excellent hospitals and even a
university.

“Nandis, not favorites during the Moi regime, still
have the sencond highest number of secondary schools
in the counytry. Bungoma, ignored by the colonial
and post-colonial govern ments has the HIGHEST NUMBER
of secondary schools in Kenya.”


Oloo Says:

These three examples- Bungoma, the Kasai and the Nandi are good and bad examples. Good in the sense that it was commendable what happened- same thing is happening all over Somalia especially in the north- but bad in the sense that given the huge potential represented by Congo’s fabulous natural wealth, it is sad that regions are forced to eke out a subsistence because the government has abdicated its responsibilities…

Papa F says:
“And in that regard I agree with you that the molasses
factory in Kisumu is an excellent example (corruption
claims aside) and symbol that ONLY the HOMEBOYS will
lead the initiative for development in a neglected
area. In short who knows maybe corruption was involved
in reviving the factory, but corruption was always
there and the factory rotted. Meanwhile Agro-Chemical
Molasses company in Muhoroni has faired VERY WELL.
The future of sugar cane as a cash crop is in
alternative products and NOT sugar. If handled well
the molasses factory may be a step in the right
direction. In itself the factory will not have a
a major impact, but as a phenomenon (of ONLY HOMEBOYS
WILL LEAD THE RESCUE) it is a step in the right
direction. But the questions of corruption will not
"evaporate" and if criminal intrigue was involved those
culpable may have to face the music.”

Oloo Says:
No comment here.

Papa F says:
“My bottom line: Nyanza solutions will have to come
from Nyanza, the enabling frame work will have to
be Kenyan (not Nyanza alone), but without the right
political will, and a development oriented political
leadership. NO CENTRAL GOVERNMENT (whether it has
10 LUO cabinet ministers) will bail out Nyanza. The
solution lies within the "Sons of the Soil" grabbing
the revitalization initiative.”

Oloo Says:
I disagree somewhat with this conclusion. Unless the province of Nyanza SECEDES from Kenya, its growth and development will be tied with the overall national economic growth and development in Kenya. That of course does not preclude regional autonomy. In fact it warrants and mandates it as prerequisite for both regional and national development. As we Marxists say, they are DIALECTICALLY intertwined.

Papa F says:
“NIMESEMA Papa F”

And I Say:

“Nami Nimenena. Onyango Oloo, Montreal, Tuesday, August 31, 2004.


from rcbowen:

To OO on the latest "tichital", poverty in Nyanza...
From: 5thGLG - Fri, Aug 27, 10:03 AM

wololo, it called for almost 2 hours of keen reading. I literally devoured, with gusto the first part, which indeed would interest Gideon Were. I'd have something to say on each paragraph.The Nyanza/western mosaic is indeed a very complex phenomenon, well epitomised by the area starting from Maseno (or Lela?) all the way to is it Nyamninia where the broadcasting satellite stands?
I'll leave the economical /sociological analysis to the relevant pundits, but the molasses plant, brings back 3 things to my memory. The first time I saw that giant now "sore eye" as Ogony puts it, was when I was a small girl visiting my auntie who worked at Kodiaga , you had to go up to Otonglo, before turning left into Kodiaga. We saw the molasses from scratch, I was far too young to understand a thing, but it was meant to revolutionize, Nyanza. The next thing I remember is that about ten years later, while residing in Kisumo, as we tried to put up a branch of Alliance fran├žaise in Kisumu, one day, someone from the molasses walked in and asked if anyone of us spoke Italian. Now, our friend who was teaming up with us on the Alliance venture is of Italian origin. So, for four days, he went to Otonglo to work as an interpretor for an Italian engineer who was meant to be working on the re-establishing of the molasses, for an umpteenth time! I should e-mail him and ask him to claim his patent share in the making of this white elephant!
Lastly, last year, while travelling to western in a family convoy to send a loved one to his final resting place, we reach Otlonglo, just opposite the "sore eye", only to find a hearse having had a head on collision on this spot! The hearse was transporting one fo the Luo/Luhya sons the late Justice Ombonya! There sure must be lots of chira (tsishira in Luhya)surrouding this would have been "golden goose"!

Re : My Tichital - On Nyanza and Poverty

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Re : My Tichital - On Nyanza and Poverty
From: Nyamin Mil - Sun, Aug 29, 10:25 AM


Poverty in Nyanza.

"Nyerere once said that the dilemma of Africa in the twentieth Century is that even as the world celebrates the victory of the west in reaching the moon, we in Africa are still very far from reaching the village."(paraphrase).

I have gone through the recent views on RCB, trying to unravel the causes and dilemma of the poverty phenomenon in Luo Nyanza. I have to confess that I found it hard going through OO’s bit. All the detours he takes need someone with plenty of time on their hands. Being a single working mother with multiple responsibilities, I only give myself the RCB luxury when I REALLY must relax! Anyhow I think I got the gist of his very well thought out arguments. PapaF and One Bim One Bullet contributions also touched on some very salient elements of the overall picture.
Except for my schooling, I grew up in Luo Nyanza and has spent a good part of my adult life living there. I have experienced first hand as the economic level of the people dwindled from medium to bad to worse to……..! I have been at numerous forums of all sorts where people discuss these things – numerous! I have in the end felt exhausted and overwhelmed with all the wise-sounding theories on the topic. I once made up my mind to quit being a theory geek and adopt a more practical approach to issues – going for action oriented solutions, no matter how inconsequential they may look.
From the postings so far, we can already appreciate how complex the topic can get - they are as many arguments as there perspectives and experiences. I will not go into naming all other additional opinions I have come across. I will confine myself to addressing just one question which PapaF put to me – “WHO IS TO BLAME Nyamin?”. I take this question because I believe it is one of utmost importance. It concerns how people view the problem and more specially, what development means to them and how they view their role in it. Whichever way you look at it, the state of human mind is very vital in determining what happens to him!
Let us go back to one of PapaF argument, that Luo Nyanza for a long time could boast of more PhD’s per sq. Km than any other region in Kenya. Someone (too lazy to get the name) once said that “In the history of humanity, education has always been closely connected with civilisation ……and is essentially viewed as away of bringing a better life into existence.” And it adds “.... this is as true today as it has ever been”. Why hasn’t this been the case for Luo Nyanza with all its PhDs?

My humble view and contribution to this debate is that apart from all the other reasons that have been advanced as causes for the impoverished state of Luo Nyanza, education and history should also take part of the blame – and probably a big chunk of it. Not because Nyanza is lacking in education as we know it, but because it has had it in abundance! A paradox, if you ask me!
OO rightly posited that during the colonial period Luo Nyanza and Western was regarded as a reserve for labour. Actually, the Luos were looked upon as the best source of intellectual labour(read white collar jobs). In Maseno, the Luo students were rated above their Luhyia counterparts, who on entry had to learn Luo (in a different class) before learning English! As a result there was a boom of an academic elite that mushroomed very fast in Nyanza, followed by academic euphoria! Where is the harm?

NB -The whole idea of colonial education was never to give an education that would inject new leash of life into the host community with each coming generation. On the contrary its aim and connived mechanism was to identify the best individuals within each community, pull them out and give them a thourough panel-beating that would turn them into best service givers to the colonial machinery.

The capacity of the Luo to respond perfectly to the panel-beating was their undoing. This is not far fetched. We know that the more one got educated, the more you were removed from your own setting and the more you fitted into cosmopolitan (read western) settings. And this has not changed over the years, even with independence the deliberate mechanisms to remove the best of human resources from the rural communities has continued. Let’s make a physical examination of education trajectory of an average Kenyan child from Alego (could be from any part of Kenya).
- In primary school, he goes to the village school. The teachers and the headmaster come from the village. They all know the parents of the child and his background, even language. The child goes back to the home in the evening. There is a perimeter fence around the school to demarcate its compound, but this is physically significant – a separation! However, anyone can walk through the compound anytime of the day without hindrance. The children even use the fields during holiday time to play. He is one of the most promising student in his class. Among with others he gets very good grades at the end and do their village school proud.
- In secondary school, the child goes into a boarding school, where he is home for less than three months in twelve months. He is basically a visitor in the village and what he learns at school has no relation to his village life. The school has a very tight fence, an iron gate, with a uniformed guard, who will very importantly question every visitor who goes in and make you sign forms. The students are not allowed beyond this gate and have no contact with the local community.
- The child grows into a young man and he luckily qualifies for Kenyatta University. One of the first impressive features he notices about the University on arrival is the imposing gate on the Thika Highway and the smart guards that attend it! The place is supposedly very prestigious and though a parody of the Universities in the west, it still identifies more with the west than with the village. His three or four years at the University is spent between the library and the lecture halls, cramming theories from Plato, Socrates to Camus! How far away can you get from your own realities?! Note the psychological symbolism of fences, gates, guards, rules etc. to reinforce this separation of the child. His contact with his village has been reduced to “hallo – how do you do?”
-He graduates with high class honours and lands a job in Mombasa. All his “promising” age mates in the village are also out somewhere(not the village) as they get into early adulthood - the most productive stage of human life from all aspects. There is a family to start, a career to build and life on the beat!The pressure to succeed as a person in all these fronts and among your peers (not the non-promising village ones) is a such a big load.
-This promising lot that left the village will one day all come back to the village to stay in the end, but under very different states – either as dead corpses, frustrated retrenchees , old tired retirees, etc. One common feature unites them though; they are all burnt out by this time!

Is it therefore any wonder that if Nyanza boasts of the most highly educated Kenyans, it by the same token boasts of the most impoversished rural communities? No social set up will survive a situation where the best it produces in terms of human resources is immediately supped up by external forces.
Can the above explain why the Luo elite, even when they are in positions to bring assistance to their people, cannot identify with the problems and aspirations of their own folks?
Could this be the reason our leaders and elite stood aside when fish was shamefully robbed from the poor Luo fishermen in the 80s in broad daylight, earning outsiders several millions overnight?! For crying out loud, fish and the lake is our ancestoral heritage! I saw Asian, Japanese and Kikuyu entrepreneurs make a kill in the fish industry under our very eyes!
Is it any wonder that with apparent abundance in human and natural resources, Luos are unable to achieve what Somalians have done without a government?
I know discrimination against Luos by successive governments has been a reality. But the reason for lack of development has much deeper roots than the often vaunted ones.
My sincere view is that we have to demystify the glory of western education and get to see education for what it really is, “a way of bringing better life into existence”. If it does not fulfill this purpose in this context, then I will curse anyone I next hear boasting of Luo Nyanza as the “cradle of intellectualism”!!!


To Papa F ... On Economic Underdevelopment of Nyanza
From: One Bim One Bullet - Sat, Aug 28, 4:45 PM

Papa F,

A very good argument. My pesa nane view is that for Luos to take the initiative and focus on development in Luoland, a major psychological/mental barrier must be overcome. Luo literati will have to overcome a belief that is common among them that focusing on the development of Luoland is akin to practising tribalism. They will have to overcome the notion that those who focus on the tribe are parochial and chauvinistic while those who focus on the nation are more intelligent, more informed, more rational, and therefore more nationalistic.

Traditionally, and for a long time, Luo literati have shunned the idea of focusing on the tribe. It is common to hear Luo literati advising people to focus on the nation. In fact, my friend Onyango Oloo is a good example here. Raila Odinga, being an MP in Nairobi is a source of pride for these Luo "nationalists." According to them, this shows that Raila is not a tribalist; they confuse a focus on the tribe with tribalism. It is not uncommon to hear Raila Odinga himself boast that he consciously chose to stand for election in Nairobi because his constituency is bigger than the tribe. I remember in 2002, Raila rejected advice to move to Kisumu siti because of the same reason.

There is an excessive obsession among many Luos with the nation at the expense of the tribe. A Luo leader would rather give a scholarship to somebody from another tribe even if his tribesman is more qualified because of fear that he might be accused of tribalism. Ditto for projects. A Luo leader might build a factory somewhere else in Kenya instead of Luoland where it would be more convinient all because of the need to be seen to be nationalistic and above tribal issue. It is a common a joke among Luos that Luoland would even be poorer with a Luo leader than with non-Luo leaders.

Thus, for Luo leaders to focus on the development of their tribe/ethnic community, they will have to understand that doing so is not necessarily tribalism. This lack of an attempt among Luo literati to distinguish between nationalism at the state level, and nationalism at the ethnic/tribal level is one of the major handicaps to the Luo literati spear-heading development of Luoland. It is a major mental/psychological barrier. Of course there is also the fear of witchcraft as well; ati utarogwa ukijenga nyumba mzuri nyumbani.




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Nyanza is POOR and BACKWARD: Why???!!
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Onyango Oloo
Posted: Aug 27 2004, 01:45 PM

theadr
Posted: Aug 28 2004, 09:41 AM

Thanks OO, fascinating essay.

I generally believe in this quote, but I fail to understand why it might be true:

"Members of the Luo community in Nyanza have always seen themselves as KENYANS first. They have always wanted to advance and develop as Kenyans. In fact if this community has a collective so called “fault” it has been that IT HAS NEVER BEEN as “selfish” and as INWARD looking compared to other communities that I could easily name were I so inclined. From Jaramogi’s deference to Kenyatta as a prerequisite for Kenyan independence in the early 1960s to Raila’s “Kibaki Tosha” rallying cry in the early 21st century and going back to Mboya’s fierce loyalty to Kenyatta rather than Jaramogi and Ouko’s fealty to Moi rather than the Odinga family you see scions and icons of the Luo community CONSCIOUSLY SACRIFICING THEIR INDIVIDUAL DREAMS OF PERSONAL POWER for the greater good."

But maybe I have answered my own question; with the help of your essay: Luos are not a homogenized, ethnically-centric group.

My wife's great-grandfather was the notorious Mumia. One of his 70 or so wives was her great-grandmother, who died in the mid 80's by the way. She was a Luhyia. Her grandfather, their son, was Owuor from Usenge, which is the place that is the edge of forever, at least from that side of the lake.

Now Owuor died in 1982, actually before his mom. He was in WW2, in Burma, came home to be a traveling vetrinarian, travelled via Triumph motopiki, yea the big kind.

Our daughter was born in 1984, and got the distinction of being Owuor because she was the first born relative since his death. She is Consuela Sonrisa Owuor Headrick.

I asked my wife if she should be "A"wour since she is a girl, not a boy, but Grace said, that doesn't matter. Another aspect of "Luo" culture?; gender indifference?

Aside, my wife always confuses "he" and "she" and "him" and "her" oppositely, always; is this a feature of dholuo, perhaps or just her idiosyncratic beingness.


Just to let you know "Consuela" comes from the Boney M song, Consuela Biaz.

Sonrisa was my touch, based on the Spanish theme, which means Smile.

Owuor you know about. Headrick is my father's name, which he claims traces back to the Etrick forest in Scotland, but they were probably German, who knows. However, they raised sheep on a mountaintop in Tennessee, and you know how the Scotsmen like their sheep, ahem.

My wife is one of those 10s of thousand Grace Akinyi's, but she's the prettiest one ever.

Just to let you know.

Trevor



Haki
Posted: Aug 28 2004, 02:52 PM

OO,

Very informative essay. I must commend you for having taken such a keen interest in where you came from and how you OO fit in the big picture of your part of the Kenyan culture. Not many Kenyans assign this much time to understanding their ancestry, which is a shame because that wealth of experience and values in our histories could help some of us to become more rounded Kenyans.

Now I finally understand one aspect of you!

I'll get the rest from Oduor Ombaka. He too is a student of history, and is also occasionally prone to his own brand of theatrics.

SOOO!!!, not only were you born with six fingers on each hand, but that you are also a serious student of theatre and history. Makes it easier to understand your idiosyncratic approach to essay writing...every point must be dragged out, ever so slowly with exhaustive theatrical pomp and pageantry.


--------------------
Haki

Haki
Posted: Aug 28 2004, 03:07 PM

QUOTE (theadr @ Aug 28 2004, 02:41 PM)
"Members of the Luo community in Nyanza have always seen themselves as KENYANS first. They have always wanted to advance and develop as Kenyans. In fact if this community has a collective so called “fault” it has been that IT HAS NEVER BEEN as “selfish” and as INWARD looking compared to other communities that I could easily name were I so inclined. From Jaramogi’s deference to Kenyatta as a prerequisite for Kenyan independence in the early 1960s to Raila’s “Kibaki Tosha” rallying cry in the early 21st century and going back to Mboya’s fierce loyalty to Kenyatta rather than Jaramogi and Ouko’s fealty to Moi rather than the Odinga family you see scions and icons of the Luo community CONSCIOUSLY SACRIFICING THEIR INDIVIDUAL DREAMS OF PERSONAL POWER for the greater good."

Theadr,

Actually, it is the reverse that is true.

Jaramogi, Tom Mboya, and Raila did not sacrifice their dreams for any one. If the numbers at the ballot box had been in their favor they would have jumped at the presidency in a heart beat. But, Alas! this was not the case. So they had to do the next best thing which was to politically manage their ambitions while they waited for their stars to line up favorably. Sometimes this wait had to be extended into the afterlife, as was the case with Jaramogi and Tom Mboya.


--------------------
Haki

Onyango Oloo
Posted: Aug 29 2004, 11:01 AM

QUOTE (Haki @ Aug 28 2004, 02:52 PM)
OO,

Very informative essay. I must commend you for having taken such a keen interest in where you came from and how you OO fit in the big picture of your part of the Kenyan culture. Not many Kenyans assign this much time to understanding their ancestry, which is a shame because that wealth of experience and values in our histories could help some of us to become more rounded Kenyans.

Now I finally understand one aspect of you!

I'll get the rest from Oduor Ombaka. He too is a student of history, and is also occasionally prone to his own brand of theatrics.

SOOO!!!, not only were you born with six fingers on each hand, but that you are also a serious student of theatre and history. Makes it easier to understand your idiosyncratic approach to essay writing...every point must be dragged out, ever so slowly with exhaustive theatrical pomp and pageantry.


Haki:

I appreciate hearing from you. Hopefully this is another opening for Kenyan community dialogue in cyberspace...

oo
mtl

oo
mtl

This post has been edited by Onyango Oloo on Aug 29 2004, 11:03 AM

Onyango Oloo
Posted: Aug 29 2004, 11:04 AM



QUOTE (theadr @ Aug 28 2004, 09:41 AM)
Thanks OO, fascinating essay.

I generally believe in this quote, but I fail to understand why it might be true:

"Members of the Luo community in Nyanza have always seen themselves as KENYANS first. They have always wanted to advance and develop as Kenyans. In fact if this community has a collective so called “fault” it has been that IT HAS NEVER BEEN as “selfish” and as INWARD looking compared to other communities that I could easily name were I so inclined. From Jaramogi’s deference to Kenyatta as a prerequisite for Kenyan independence in the early 1960s to Raila’s “Kibaki Tosha” rallying cry in the early 21st century and going back to Mboya’s fierce loyalty to Kenyatta rather than Jaramogi and Ouko’s fealty to Moi rather than the Odinga family you see scions and icons of the Luo community CONSCIOUSLY SACRIFICING THEIR INDIVIDUAL DREAMS OF PERSONAL POWER for the greater good."

But maybe I have answered my own question; with the help of your essay: Luos are not a homogenized, ethnically-centric group.

My wife's great-grandfather was the notorious Mumia. One of his 70 or so wives was her great-grandmother, who died in the mid 80's by the way. She was a Luhyia. Her grandfather, their son, was Owuor from Usenge, which is the place that is the edge of forever, at least from that side of the lake.

Now Owuor died in 1982, actually before his mom. He was in WW2, in Burma, came home to be a traveling vetrinarian, travelled via Triumph motopiki, yea the big kind.

Our daughter was born in 1984, and got the distinction of being Owuor because she was the first born relative since his death. She is Consuela Sonrisa Owuor Headrick.

I asked my wife if she should be "A"wour since she is a girl, not a boy, but Grace said, that doesn't matter. Another aspect of "Luo" culture?; gender indifference?

Aside, my wife always confuses "he" and "she" and "him" and "her" oppositely, always; is this a feature of dholuo, perhaps or just her idiosyncratic beingness.

Just to let you know "Consuela" comes from the Boney M song, Consuela Biaz.

Sonrisa was my touch, based on the Spanish theme, which means Smile.

Owuor you know about. Headrick is my father's name, which he claims traces back to the Etrick forest in Scotland, but they were probably German, who knows. However, they raised sheep on a mountaintop in Tennessee, and you know how the Scotsmen like their sheep, ahem.

My wife is one of those 10s of thousand Grace Akinyi's, but she's the prettiest one ever.

Just to let you know.

Trevor

thanks for your feedback. you are a captivating raconteur, please write some more- i am sure i am not the only who feels this way.

oo
mtl

Observer
Posted: Aug 29 2004, 11:02 PM


I'm starting to like your rambles OO. Lots to respond to in this one.

I absolutely agree with your list of 'excuses' - these are by no means unique to Nyanza. However, the reverse side of the coin also applies. In the calculated acquisition of power, a politician is forced to rely on power bases. No power base in Kenya is as powerful as that of the ethnic card. To remain on top of the pile, the traditional strategy of our leaders has hitherto been to be seen to favour one power base at the expense of the other, and vice versa. Much of this is deceptive conduct - it is the appearance of favouring one power base and simply promising 'maendeleo' that can deliver the power base, whether 'maendelo' actually arrives or not. Usually not. Gullibility is the opposite of development, one might say.

Your list also reads astonishinglu like the list of excuses perpetuated by Africans generally when addressing their general place in the global scheme of things. Such a list might read 'Slave trade', 'Colonialism', 'The Cold War', 'The World Bank' and now 'George Bush'. Blah. While these aspects of history are real and had an impact, they did not occur in isolation from other aspects of history, not least a failure of African leadership in the post-colonial era, the geopolitical realities of a continent with more states than any other, four times the length of international frontiers than Asia (with a corresponding increase in the amount of internal and cross-border conflict), a total lack of infrastructure and so on.

On the matter of the Maasai land issue, I have addressed my opinion elsewhere on this board recently - have a look and post a response.

Maasai Land Claims

As for your proposed strategy for the development of Nyanza, I will not comment on the Marxist vs Liberal theoretical aspects, as we will be hear until Armaggedon, suffice to say that I believe that Kenya's economic development should be carried out on a national basis with the regional and continental picture in mind.

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Subject: "UPDATED: The Nyanza Essay" Previous topic | Next topic

Onyango Oloo Thu Aug-26-04 10:37 PM
Charter member
3784 posts, 66 votes, 59 points
#54472, "UPDATED: The Nyanza Essay"
Fri Aug-27-04 04:08 PMby Onyango Oloo



alexander Mon Aug-30-04 01:55 PM
Member since May 10th 2004
751 posts, 7 votes, 9 points
#54601, "RE: UPDATED: The Nyanza Essay"
In response to Reply # 0

At the risk of being called names...let me pen my initial reaction to OO�s Nyanza essay.

Of course the only interesting and new thing was OO's bio which is as always amusing and refreshing to read.

On point 4.0: The story of the Maasai belongs to another thread unless the word "Nyanza" was only used for decoration, or better yet as a hook.

On point 5.0: the theory of uneven development, if it is a theory at all, is immaterial. It is blamed on colonialism and capitalism. The mbeberu did not come to develop Kenya, he came to exploit it. It can be convincingly argued that nyanza disproportionably gained more than the rest of Kenya from colonialism. In fact the present predicament facing the province can be viewed as a result of a return to equilibrium after colonial emphasis.
When we say Luos/Nyanza is poorer, but use statistics from other provinces as evidence, all we might be saying is that the other provinces have done better. Most recently the gap has narrowed somewhat because of the plight of tourism and coffee, tea in international market.

That luos benefited where kikuyus were locked up in the wake of mau mau rebellion a matter of fact. I only say this to dispel the theory of uneven development.

On capitalism and uneven development, this is to be expected-regions are not equally endowed in natural resources, access to transport and communication, access to electrical power, human resources, climate factors. In fact it is silly, useless, pointless, a waste to expect regions to have even development.

Nyanza simply does produce a lot. And it probably won�t in the near future. It is simply not that well endowed.

Cheers
Alexander


Onyango Oloo Mon Aug-30-04 05:17 PM
Charter member
3784 posts, 66 votes, 59 points
#54616, "RE: UPDATED: The Nyanza Essay"
In response to Reply # 1

thanks for your feedback. when you have some time, please do me a favour and read the essay. uneven development is a concept that includes central province by the way.
oo
mtl


kim007 Tue Aug-31-04 08:14 AM
Member since Jun 09th 2004
776 posts, 14 votes, -13 points
#54625, "RE: UPDATED: The Nyanza Essay"
In response to Reply # 0


Cant you get anything better to do than post linkz on this site

9thWONDER Tue Aug-31-04 08:26 AM
Member since Nov 07th 2003
222 posts, Rate this user
#54626, "RE: UPDATED: The Nyanza Essay"
In response to Reply # 3


>Cant you get anything better to do than post linkz on this
>site
>

can't you do anything better say like using your head ...and knowing this topic is way over your head


mumgy Tue Aug-31-04 10:14 AM
Member since Jan 23rd 2004
1160 posts, 34 votes, -12 points
#54630, "RE: UPDATED: The Nyanza Essay"
In response to Reply # 4

>can't you do anything better say like using your head ...and
>knowing this topic is way over your head

lol funny!



Onyango Oloo Tue Aug-31-04 04:27 PM
Charter member
3784 posts, 66 votes, 59 points
#54641, "kim, here is something i could do"
In response to Reply # 3


teach you english or kiswahili so that you can communicate coherently.

when do you want to start?

oo
mtl

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roughrider Wed Sep-01-04 12:44 AM
Member since May 25th 2004
588 posts, 7 votes, 14 points
#54654, "RE: UPDATED: The Nyanza Essay"
In response to In response to 0


An ‘ochung tir’ aka Homo Sapiens Sapiens from the shores of nam lolwe (the lake which Kenyans mistakenly call Victoria, after the wife of a major Ruoth of the Jo-Britis, God bless her royal soul), an ‘ochung tir’ like roughrider is bound to look twice at an essay that tries to explain why the classiest, brightest, noisiest, handsomest, blackest (with whitest teeth) Kenyan is also the poorest and sickest.

Jaluo spends his money and like one wise guy once said, the dumbest thing you can do with your dough is to spend it. A jaluo with money in the pocket is the ultimate ticking time bomb…. a shopping spree waiting to happen.

I need to talk about something else because all what I have said will be filed away under STUPID AND INSANE, the bulkiest and most important file in Mashada.

SERIOUS POINT ONE: We haven’t got enough analyses and possible solutions to the poverty in Western Kenya because the room is crowded by STUPID AND INSANE diagnoses crowding out the few voices of reason.

SERIOUS POINT NUMBER TWO: The people of Western Kenya are poor because some other people are rich. Somebody somewhere ate more than her fair share.

Jaluo and abandu are communal animals found in Western Kenya. They eat together, sleep together, own together, and die together. They are communist! Yet according to Jo-Britis, Kenya is capitalist damu…. watu wanakulana wenyewe kwa wenyewe. So while abandu is soooo loooving and jaluo is soooo truuusting other animals found within this territory are greedily gobbling everything away leaving jaluo and abandu with crumbs.

SERIOUS POINT NUMBER THREE: Luos and Luhyia are close knit communities with strong societal ties and regard for their neighbours’ predicaments. Raw, rabid searing capitalism is alien to their culture. Situated in a capitalist environment where the jungle law – survival for the fittest – rules they end up in penury and malnutrition. For this group to have a fighting chance at survival, two things should happen; one is inject a healthy, refreshing dose of socialism (call it welfare, call it equity, call it whatever) and these ‘ochung tirs’ will have a lifeline. Two, teach these fellows a little capitalism – feasting in funerals is grossly inefficient, morally repugnant. Sending money to a hundred relatives or greedily sharing wealth of a dead uncle won’t do. I hope Jo-Baengele are listening.

Capitalism breeds innovation, innovation will stimulate development and development will raise living standards. A little capitalism will keep dependency away.

Jaluo has been busy, and arrogantly so – inheriting bereaved women and nit picking over such things as ensuring a KKK mayor in Kisumu City. (KKK for ignorant readers is Kisumo, Kano and Kajulu). Jaluo is very bitter about how Kenyatta double-crossed Jaramogi…. Matiba did the same and Kibaki repeated the same feat with Raila. Jaluo is too trusting and will trust again and again and again. (Maybe it is too much ‘omena’ in the stomach?)

SERIOUS POINT NUMBER FOUR: Give power to the people, let the people decide. I think devolving executive and admin power to the regions will first UNLOCK and then UNLEASH the festering potential in regions that have been marginalised like Nyanza. Continued central government bureaucracy only constricts and suffocates the regions which are not lucky to have conscientious sons in high places. It gives rise to gross political manipulation and misallocation of resources. Today Jo-Masaai want their land which was grabbed by Jo-Britis, tomorrow Ja-Luo and Abandu will demand affirmative action to right historical misallocation.

CONCLUSION: Oloo has written a good essay. How the west underdeveloped Africa is how some bourgeois types are raping the less fortunate regions in Kenya today. Want an example? Look at how small time civil servants are given crumbs while their bosses get multiple wage increases. The agitation in Kenya is growing… already the discomfort is showing, the clouds are gathering, flashes of lightening. Soon we will have a storm.



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Topic: Nyanza is BACKWARD and POOR- WHY???
Message posted by Onyango Oloo on 27/08/2004 at 9:50pm - IP Logged
Onyango Oloo
Standard Member
Canada
01/03/2004
175 Posts

Onyango Oloo takes a pictorial, sociological, historical, economic, political, philosophical tour of the Kenyan province:

http://demokrasia-kenya.blogspot.com/2004/08/poverty-in-nyanza-symptom-of-uneven.html

oo
mtl

Message posted by bakhoki on 28/08/2004 at 12:28am - IP Logged
bakhoki
Standard Member
United States
08/04/2004
66 Posts

@OO,

I extend some of your brilliant hypothesis to the situation in my Province of Western. Hopefully we can get devolution so that we can solve our problems.

Message posted by Antoine Didi Kembola on 28/08/2004 at 12:39am - IP Logged
Antoine Didi Kembola
Standard Member
Papua New Guinea
23/08/2004
91 Posts

Its the persistent supression of the brilliant people from Democratic Rebublic of Nyanza(DRN) and the struggle continues. We'll have to break away from other people have manage this country alone. You might want to refer to Namabale's...ARE L*UOS THE SMARTEST TRIBE in kenya and you'll know why they are so scarrrred of us!

Message posted by njathe on 28/08/2004 at 1:53am - IP Logged
njathe
Standard Member
Kenya
10/07/2004
217 Posts

@Antoine

could it be that the PHDs and intellectuals of L uo Nyanza thought they were punishing MO1 and grinding the country to a halt by not employing their best abilities to develop Nyanza (and Kenya by extension?). Are the Nyanza PHDs totally innocent and the only ones who were 'sinned against'?

Infact, it is a big pity for a L uo intellectual to just point out how underdeveloped his constituency is. In most other countries, a national leader first points to the gains of development efforts in his 'home area' before he purports to be able to lead a country.

Message posted by Antoine Didi Kembola on 28/08/2004 at 2:01am - IP Logged
Antoine Didi Kembola
Standard Member
Papua New Guinea
23/08/2004
91 Posts

@Nj@the
If you're talking about Onyango Oloo, he's not a L*uo. He defected long time ago and is the anti-nyanza mouthpiece so I guess you and him have something in common. Please re-read Oloo's posts and apologize to him. For OO(the way your pple call him), I will reserve my comments.

Message posted by njathe on 28/08/2004 at 2:11am - IP Logged
njathe
Standard Member
Kenya
10/07/2004
217 Posts


Quote: Originally posted by Antoine Didi Kembola on 28/08/2004 @Nj@the
... Onyango Oloo, he's not a L*uo. He defected long time ago and is the anti-nyanza mouthpiece...Please re-read Oloo's posts and apologize to him. For OO(the way your pple call him), I will reserve my comments.





Hmmmm....I wonder, yet he denigrates and waxes contemptuous of Bantu culture as he embarks on what I perceive to be a L uo digital ego-trip.

Message posted by Antoine Didi Kembola on 28/08/2004 at 2:19am - IP Logged
Antoine Didi Kembola
Standard Member
Papua New Guinea
23/08/2004
91 Posts

Too bad for OO. he's the equivalent of Raphael Tuju in politics....You go against your people and then those other people don't like you! To OO, keep it real man.

Message posted by Onyango Oloo on 28/08/2004 at 4:25am - IP Logged
Onyango Oloo
Standard Member
Canada
01/03/2004
175 Posts

what is all this garbage antoine didi kembola? ati "defected" from what? did you read my essay at all? and njaaathe, where do you get this idea that i am contemptous of bantu culture when i open my essay by talking of my bantu roots?

can we for once, concentrate on the issues i have raised rather than my personality?

oo
mtl

Message posted by Antoine Didi Kembola on 28/08/2004 at 5:09am - IP Logged
Antoine Didi Kembola
Standard Member
Papua New Guinea
23/08/2004
91 Posts

njaaathe, where do you get this idea that i am contemptous of bantu culture when i open my essay by talking of my bantu roots?
You just said it!

Message posted by bakhoki on 28/08/2004 at 10:24am - IP Logged
bakhoki
Standard Member
United States
08/04/2004
66 Posts

@ ALL,

Onyango Oloo is probably one of the most brilliant contributors I have ever read in ANY forum. Folks, this guy is NOT tribal at all; he's probably one of the least tribal Kenyans I have ever come across.

Message posted by Karanja W.L on 28/08/2004 at 10:35am - IP Logged
Karanja W.L
Standard Member
United Kingdom
26/06/2004
78 Posts

@all
I am yet to read OOs write-up, but let me say that I don't like people who shy away from issues and focus on someone�s personality.

My principle is that even if Satan were ask me for a verbal dwell, I would still accept it as long as he promises that it will only be that, a debate, and he is not taking me to hell!

So whether someone thinks that OO is a cyber equivalent of TUJU, scoring in his own goal or not, it is imperative to hear and discuss points he has raised.

Even the TUJUS of this world have their stories.

So OO, go on with your contributions and we will judge you appropriately where we think you are becoming a TUJU!

Message posted by Akinyikorando on 28/08/2004 at 5:44pm - IP Logged
Akinyikorando
Standard Member
Kenya
01/06/2004
51 Posts

What do you mean by backward!Let me give you some facts about Nyanza.It is the on ly Province where every Farm out put exists Viz.Maize,cotton,sugar cane.tea,coffee,tobaco,fish,wheat,various fruits,groundnuts etc.Believe me not any one province in the country has the endownment to produce such varieties.not to forget best brains.Now the PROBLEM now is" TECHNOLOGICALLY POSSIBLE BUT POLITICALLY IMPOSSIBLE".Read the molases issue. If you see how state institutions were placed e.g Millitary Barracks etc you will realise that Nyanza had been economically sabotaged from the time of Kenyatta no wonder Oginga Noticed this and an enraged woman hit Kenyatta with a shoe.It is therefore clear that Poverty in Nyanza is State Sponsored.But I still call on Nyanza Leaders to keep standing for what they believe is right because if the sing Praises of the Government they will even be worse off,Others are jealous of Nyanza i dont know why

Message posted by OGUDA SUZUKI on 28/08/2004 at 6:37pm - IP Logged
OGUDA SUZUKI
Standard Member
Kenya
28/08/2004
8 Posts

Who is this Onyango Oloo? It looks to me like he's one of those fellows trying to get sympathy from others and by others I mean K*ik*uyus. Just like Nyar Korando said......What do you mean by Backward???????? I grew up in Nyanza and never seen anything backward about it. Must we have a military base in Nyanza to show development. We have functional schools and all that and we don't rely on relief food like most regions do and so by saying we're backward, Onyango Oloo, is just trying to insult my people. We're so self reliant..Its like we don't have a govt and we still do well and the simply reason is that we're smart people(self governing) For rejects like Onyango Oloo, please just find yourself something better to do and just SHUT UP!!! By the way, what are doing in Canada of all the places? You're a coward, Oloo!

Message posted by njathe on 28/08/2004 at 7:55pm - IP Logged
njathe
Standard Member
Kenya
10/07/2004
217 Posts

@Oguda Suzuki

Another I d i o t discovers the legendary Onyango Oloo. Well, OO happens to be the next great political/literary discovery after sliced bread. As you can see from yr reaction, NO-ONE is neutral about OO you either LOVE him or HATE him. Either way u choose to go, welcome to the club!

AND FOR THE RECORD, ALL DISTRICTS (REGIONS) IN KENYA ARE BACKWARD, AND POOR. Infact as far as I am concerned,(having done my tour of duty on the NGO front)
THE GUSIIs ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT NEEDED FOOD AID, OR NGO INTERVENTION THUS FAR. THEY ARE SELF-SUFFICIENT!!!

Shame on you O.Suzuki!

Message posted by CharityWorld on 28/08/2004 at 8:07pm - IP Logged
CharityWorld
Standard Member
United States
29/03/2004
83 Posts

Why cant people discuss Issues here instead of getting personals? How else will you narture and nourish proper growth without objective and critical self-analysis? And i didnt know CANADA is where Cowards live either!

SUZUKI, Its obvious you've been reading OOs posts quite well. But you decided to register another NICK today just like some goons who are real cowards. How else would you have known this OO quite well to bash him with such velocity?
I dont defend anyone, neither do i expect to be defended as if this is a pub ya 'kurudisha mkono'.
Why is it hard to first see ourselves as Humans , then Africans, and finally Kenyans? The western hemisphere dont see us as Kenyans much less a L U O or K!Kuyu. They just see a nigger!
If a brother says our region is backward, even though ours flow with milk and honey, cant we just take it as a call for challenge to take our community to new heights Instead of labelling them 'rejects'?


Message posted by Antoine Didi Kembola on 28/08/2004 at 10:31pm - IP Logged
Antoine Didi Kembola
Standard Member
Papua New Guinea
23/08/2004
91 Posts

@Oloo
Thy lieutanants have come to your rescue for thats why they have you there and like I said before, bashing the people of nyanza is not the best way to get attention for you're from Nyanza too and its just like ridiculing your own self.

@Nj@the
OO is your silced bread and goodluck with that. How come the NGO you toured with never told you Gusii is in Nyanza because you quite don't seem to understand that upto this point and there still is an A-(Adult Education programme), you might want to register for that for you truly need it! Why even disagree when you acknowledge that gusiiland has never needed food intervention and thats what I said. Nyanza is not backward as this goon is trying to suggest. I am not alone in this....Akinyi Nyar Korando and even Oguda said the same thing.
@Charityworld
Today you just came out very sensible. Thank you for you seem to make sense here.

Message posted by njathe on 28/08/2004 at 10:58pm - IP Logged
njathe
Standard Member
Kenya
10/07/2004
217 Posts

@Antoine

I could never be one of Oloo's lieutenants. You must hv seen me throw an occasional barb his way, whilst appreciating his work sometimes.

You know the Nyanza PHDs love to be quoted in Newsprint and electronic media more than they want to apply themselves to development.

Others of course are in politics for the money. Nothing like having 'insider' knowledge on the next location the GOK is planning to develop or where the next highway/housing estate is going to be constructed.

That's what probably makes Oloo a compelling read for Kenyans. HE IS AN OUTSIDER STATIONED IN CANADA. HE IS THEREFORE (HOPEFULLY) NOT YET TAINTED BY KENYAN POLITICS. KENYANS READ OLOO 'COZ THEY ARE SINCERELY LOOKING FOR ANSWERS AND SOLUTIONS TO THEIR PRESENT PREDICAMENTS.

I MUST CONGRATULATE H.E. K ibaki here for being a silent, non-selfseeking politician. Antoine, maybe u were not born when Yaliotokea was THE PROGRAMME to be on, on KBC.

Message posted by Antoine Didi Kembola on 28/08/2004 at 11:21pm - IP Logged
Antoine Didi Kembola
Standard Member
Papua New Guinea
23/08/2004
91 Posts

@Nj@the
Thats ok and for your info I was very much around during the yaliotokea. OO(the way u like to call him) has run out of ideas and I don't care whatever he does to keep you guys reading but I sure do have a problem with him misleading people about the state of things in Nyanza. When is the last time he was there?..When he rubbed them the wrong way and the kicked his whatever. Oloo sounds like a REFUGEEE and is in asylum in canada which is ok. Mr. Oloo, for your info, Moi is nolonger the president if he's the one who tortured you. To keep it short, Oloo is totally misled into thinking that talking negatively about the people of nyanza will give him credit for anything. Nyanza is moving in the right direction and if you were to profile every province,we'll be somewhere up there. mr. Oloo if you're truly concerned about poverty in kenya, then you should have posted something like...NORTH EASTERN ISSBACKWARD AND POOR...WHY??? Does anyone from Nyanza read this?

Message posted by tomzipperman on 29/08/2004 at 1:28am - IP Logged
tomzipperman
Standard Member
United States
28/05/2004
50 Posts

Nyar Korando 1, Onyango Oloo, Nill. Hee Hee. Tuju types do not last long. I never read Oloo's essay, the page is blocked. As from his postings, I once asked him not to be too much of a "compromist". The cat is out of the bag. If he has Bantu roots (he says above) then my first guess is that he is a Suba (Bantus on Rusinga Island of Lake Victoria on the Kenyan gulf). By the way, why is everyone assuming that Oloo is talking about L*u*o Nyanza? The guy might have well meant K*isii-Nyanza!


Message posted by tomzipperman on 29/08/2004 at 1:39am - IP Logged
tomzipperman
Standard Member
United States
28/05/2004
50 Posts

CharityWorld or Charity Sweepstake, I agree with that bit that all of us abroad are seen as niggers first before our tribal affiliations. "Negritude" should be the most uniting factor in Africa. For example, if African

Message posted by aeichener on 29/08/2004 at 1:39am - IP Logged
aeichener
Standard Member
Germany
10/04/2004
151 Posts


Quote: Originally posted by nkenyan on 28/08/2004 NO-ONE is neutral about OO you either LOVE him or HATE him.



Grant me an exception from this rule, will you ?
:-)

Alexander

Message posted by Kori on 29/08/2004 at 1:46am - IP Logged
Kori
Standard Member
Kenya
01/03/2004
67 Posts

I have tried but I been have been unable to access OO's link.

However I feel the issue being addressed re being backward is clearly confirmed by the way some members have personalised the issue. Even if you donot agree at least have a better way of showing cause why the issue of backward is incorrect rather than unwiitingly justifying the statement. It sounds just like rather heckling.

Message posted by tomzipperman on 29/08/2004 at 1:48am - IP Logged
tomzipperman
Standard Member
United States
28/05/2004
50 Posts

Ahah, what a rude interruption ... I was saying that if Africans produced industrial goods and sold to Africans then we would develop quite fast (speedy consumption, speedy production, speedy growth, and all profits kept at home - Africa). We do NOT even need to have technology patents, we just have to wait till the patents in the First World expire, then we produce the same stuff in factories, etc. Eg, all civil servants should ride in African-made vehicles, etc. It is that simple, the rest is politics.

Message posted by aeichener on 29/08/2004 at 2:28am - IP Logged
aeichener
Standard Member
Germany
10/04/2004
151 Posts


Quote: Originally posted by Kori on 29/08/2004 I have tried but I been have been unable to access OO's link.



He accidentally misaddressed his own URL. Try the following complete address; as usually, it is worth reading it:

http://demokrasia-kenya.blogspot.com/2004/08/poverty-in-nyanza-symptom-of-uneven_26.html

Alexander

Message posted by chieth ogwal on 29/08/2004 at 6:15am - IP Logged
chieth ogwal
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United States
11/07/2004
39 Posts

Speaking of the Subas, I am one of them and so is Siongo and this is no one like us. Potraying the people of Nyanza as backward is very unacceptable! he owes us an apology. There is nothing like personalizing issues here. OO has to head back to his cage!



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Topic: Nyanza is BACKWARD and POOR- WHY???
Message posted by chieth ogwal on 29/08/2004 at 6:22am - IP Logged
chieth ogwal
Standard Member
United States
11/07/2004
39 Posts

OO is a conman and a coward who has never been home and worst of all just another mungiki mouthpiece. we just have to call a spoon a spoon and this is the reality check.

Message posted by njathe on 29/08/2004 at 7:20am - IP Logged
njathe
Standard Member
Kenya
10/07/2004
217 Posts

@Chieth O

This is very informative and suprising for me. I really had no idea that Bantus lived in Nyanza. Albeit they appear to be confined to Rusinga Island. Are they true Bantus? Honestly I am curious.

Message posted by chieth ogwal on 29/08/2004 at 7:40am - IP Logged
chieth ogwal
Standard Member
United States
11/07/2004
39 Posts

@Nj@the
Yes they are true bantus. They are not only confined to the island, they spread out to areas like Sindo,kaksingri and even as far as parts of Mbita area. The young generation have for some strange reasons resorted to speaking kenyan but they speak bantu and its quite similar to bakuria/bagusii. My mother is a typical example who speak that 'abetho miriya koga' language. She speaks this language we dont understand and kenyan but interestingly they seem to be just speaking kij@l*uo.

Message posted by chiefouko on 29/08/2004 at 11:29am - IP Logged
chiefouko
Standard Member
Australia
01/03/2004
207 Posts

Oloo Omera, I must say - that was kindda unexpected.. i was hopin to hear/read somethin more indepth as to why Nyanza is 'Backward'. I am hopin to get a reply from you en i would like to let u know that, am ready to be criticized coz i do criticize 'others'. I also ask Lake City jamaaz en all to be ready to be criticized but question in a good intelectual way - lets not let emotions boil over.

Oloo.. May be i missed somethin here but, if u care to explain do u realy believe nyanza is poor en 'backward' because.. QUOTE FROM YOU BLOG

"Some rabid Gikuyuphobes from the L*uo community have blamed it all on those so called �evil and conniving keyKuyus� saying, �Jorabuon ne oyako kendo ne gi iro Onagi� (the �Potato Eaters� plundered and bewitched the �People who Remove the Six Lower Teeth�) which is just as silly, simplistic and village like as it sounds in translation."

if truly thats the reason u believe L*uos or Nyanza is 'backward' or poor then this other quote (Below) from your Blog is also not true or u are one of those who assume Nyanza to be a L*UO Province en Omera, how does ur point or analysis above evaluate to be 'backward' or contribution to poverty, which is it?

QUOTE:: " The other things worth pointing out is that Nyanza is NOT a �L*uo Province�; it is populated by Kisiis, Kuria, Abasuba, Luhyias, Kalenjins and in places like Kisumu, Kendu Bay, Homa Bay, Yala, Oyugis, Migori etc, by Kik*u*yus, Somalis, Wahindi, Wazungu, Waarabu, Waswahili, Tanzanian and Ugandan immigrants and many other communities."

Omera. I for one.. havent heard of the explanation u gave of the 'Gikuyuphobes from the L*uo community' u are the first, its also dissapointing that it had to be u (i thought big of u).

This so called 'rivalry', apparently between L*uos en KeyKuyus is all political.. its nothin of the magnitude being protrayed by a few forum members as a social problem. How come this problem wasn't their when Mo1 was presy en both tribes were being neglected?.

To Nyadhiwa Oloo, such illusions of L*uos/Nyanza 'backwardness' or poverty are bad to be posted on the net for the world to see. If it was somethin well researched and analysed, it would be worth postin the blog (be it positive or negative) for the world to see but this.. i say 'FILE IT UNDER 'KEEP IT TO YOURSELF'!!. ati 'Backward', thats jus not true. PERIOD!

Message posted by jamach123 on 29/08/2004 at 7:08pm - IP Logged
jamach123
Standard Member
United States
29/07/2004
112 Posts

@Chief
Miye wach! Ok on'ngeyo.

Message posted by suekimj on 29/08/2004 at 8:22pm - IP Logged
suekimj
Standard Member
United Kingdom
16/06/2004
48 Posts

Someone get me out of the maze.

So where would we find the kenyans then if the area "assumed" to be dominated by the kenyans is inhabited by Kenyans?
Is OOs argument therefore that Nyanza is poor and backward because the Luhya's kenyans, Ugandans, somalis etc live there?

Message posted by Onyango Oloo on 29/08/2004 at 11:23pm - IP Logged
Onyango Oloo
Standard Member
Canada
01/03/2004
175 Posts

my fellow kenyans amaze me. do some of you venture beyond the headings of my essays?

if you did, then you obviously do not not understand the english language because i go into a lot of detail in locating myself in all the issues i raise; in demolishing all the tribal myths about kenyans and so forth and in pointing out that the poverty and underdevelopment in nyanza is symptomatic of poverty and underdevelopment in nyanza.

i am probably the only kenyan who is detested equally by L U O chauvinists and tribalists from other communities. i consider that a GREAT COMPLIMENT. i do not mind being hated by narrow minded individuals WHO DO NOT BOTHER TO READ THE ESSAYS THEY TRASH.

Onyango Oloo
Montreal

Message posted by Onyango Oloo on 29/08/2004 at 11:25pm - IP Logged
Onyango Oloo
Standard Member
Canada
01/03/2004
175 Posts


Quote: Originally posted by chieth ogwal on 29/08/2004 OO is a conman and a coward who has never been home and worst of all just another mungiki mouthpiece. we just have to call a spoon a spoon and this is the reality check.



so on the nation forum you are "chieth ogwal"? eh, nani wa nani?

you are fooling no one but yourself.

read my essay for once.

oo
mtl

Message posted by Onyango Oloo on 29/08/2004 at 11:26pm - IP Logged
Onyango Oloo
Standard Member
Canada
01/03/2004
175 Posts


Quote: Originally posted by suekimj on 29/08/2004 Someone get me out of the maze.

So where would we find the kenyans then if the area "assumed" to be dominated by the kenyans is inhabited by Kenyans?
Is OOs argument therefore that Nyanza is poor and backward because the Luhya's kenyans, Ugandans, somalis etc live there?


TRY READING THE ESSAY SUEKIMJ.

where did you get THAT RIDICULOUS IDEA???????!!!

oo
mtl

Message posted by Onyango Oloo on 29/08/2004 at 11:27pm - IP Logged
Onyango Oloo
Standard Member
Canada
01/03/2004
175 Posts


Quote: Originally posted by chiefouko on 29/08/2004 Oloo Omera, I must say - that was kindda unexpected.. i was hopin to hear/read somethin more indepth as to why Nyanza is 'Backward'. I am hopin to get a reply from you en i would like to let u know that, am ready to be criticized coz i do criticize 'others'. I also ask Lake City jamaaz en all to be ready to be criticized but question in a good intelectual way - lets not let emotions boil over.

Oloo.. May be i missed somethin here but, if u care to explain do u realy believe nyanza is poor en 'backward' because.. QUOTE FROM YOU BLOG

"Some rabid Gikuyuphobes from the L*uo community have blamed it all on those so called �evil and conniving keyKuyus� saying, �Jorabuon ne oyako kendo ne gi iro Onagi� (the �Potato Eaters� plundered and bewitched the �People who Remove the Six Lower Teeth�) which is just as silly, simplistic and village like as it sounds in translation."

if truly thats the reason u believe L*uos or Nyanza is 'backward' or poor then this other quote (Below) from your Blog is also not true or u are one of those who assume Nyanza to be a L*UO Province en Omera, how does ur point or analysis above evaluate to be 'backward' or contribution to poverty, which is it?

QUOTE:: " The other things worth pointing out is that Nyanza is NOT a �L*uo Province�; it is populated by Kisiis, Kuria, Abasuba, Luhyias, Kalenjins and in places like Kisumu, Kendu Bay, Homa Bay, Yala, Oyugis, Migori etc, by Kik*u*yus, Somalis, Wahindi, Wazungu, Waarabu, Waswahili, Tanzanian and Ugandan immigrants and many other communities."

Omera. I for one.. havent heard of the explanation u gave of the 'Gikuyuphobes from the L*uo community' u are the first, its also dissapointing that it had to be u (i thought big of u).

This so called 'rivalry', apparently between L*uos en KeyKuyus is all political.. its nothin of the magnitude being protrayed by a few forum members as a social problem. How come this problem wasn't their when Mo1 was presy en both tribes were being neglected?.

To Nyadhiwa Oloo, such illusions of L*uos/Nyanza 'backwardness' or poverty are bad to be posted on the net for the world to see. If it was somethin well researched and analysed, it would be worth postin the blog (be it positive or negative) for the world to see but this.. i say 'FILE IT UNDER 'KEEP IT TO YOURSELF'!!. ati 'Backward', thats jus not true. PERIOD!





read the essay. i am not about to rewrite it here. and please stop distorting my arguments.

oo
mtl

Message posted by OGUDA SUZUKI on 30/08/2004 at 12:10am - IP Logged
OGUDA SUZUKI
Standard Member
Kenya
28/08/2004
8 Posts

@OO
As a man, I would advice you to oen up to this error, apologize and move on. You just rubbed everyone the wrong way(including your loyal base,mungikis)! Don't try to claim here that you detest tribal chauvinists for you are acting worse than them. Poverty begins from North eastern so if you truly want to help, I suggest you start from that end or even move to Sudan!

Message posted by Onyango Oloo on 30/08/2004 at 1:28am - IP Logged
Onyango Oloo
Standard Member
Canada
01/03/2004
175 Posts


Quote: Originally posted by OGUDA SUZUKI on 30/08/2004 @OO
As a man, I would advice you to oen up to this error, apologize and move on. You just rubbed everyone the wrong way(including your loyal base,mungikis)! Don't try to claim here that you detest tribal chauvinists for you are acting worse than them. Poverty begins from North eastern so if you truly want to help, I suggest you start from that end or even move to Sudan!



you are too transparent even with that stupid moniker.

if you actually bothered to read the essay you would not be making this absolutely asinine remarks.

oo
mtl

Message posted by Antoine Didi Kembola on 30/08/2004 at 4:56am - IP Logged
Antoine Didi Kembola
Standard Member
Papua New Guinea
23/08/2004
91 Posts

OO
I would suggest you go to bed for you seem to have nothing to do here...you're now becoming boring!!

Message posted by Onyango Oloo on 30/08/2004 at 5:12am - IP Logged
Onyango Oloo
Standard Member
Canada
01/03/2004
175 Posts


Quote: Originally posted by Antoine Didi Kembola on 30/08/2004 OO
I would suggest you go to bed for you seem to have nothing to do here...you're now becoming boring!!



whereabouts in papua new guinea are you in?

i have some friends in that neck of the woods.

oo
mtl

Message posted by chiefouko on 30/08/2004 at 7:11am - IP Logged
chiefouko
Standard Member
Australia
01/03/2004
207 Posts

OO

Don't jus assume i din't read the easy, u r now acting like a victim, instead of supportin your points. Did u expect not to be challenged?, en Omera jus because u were in prison doesn't make u a 'know it all' if at all u know, seems u think so much of urself coz of the prison time... jus explain points vizuri.

So how r my distorting ur arguments en what were they?.

- If there is 'GIk*uyuphobia in L*uo community', how does that translate to 'poverty or backwardness'?

- So there was a sect of some lake city jamaaz in prison with u, how does that translate to 'poverty or backwardness'?

Or what was it am supposed to read in that ka blog that was to enlighten me of poverty en backwardness in L*uo/Nyanza?
- The way u were named?, do u think even Kam_anda or Koi*gi would buy that or even care how u were named.

I think yours was a rush to make somethin out of nothin.

JIBU MASWALI OMERA!!..STOP ACTING LIKE A VICTIM COZ U NOT!!

Message posted by Antoine Didi Kembola on 30/08/2004 at 8:37am - IP Logged
Antoine Didi Kembola
Standard Member
Papua New Guinea
23/08/2004
91 Posts

@OO
All you're doing now is being unnecessarily defensive. You seem so quick to call your critics stupid and you truly sound very stupid. If u were tortured in jail, then, I guess they left u with very little,if any,upstairs! I guess you now deserve no respect and you better shut the F%uck up!!

Message posted by railajuu on 30/08/2004 at 8:52am - IP Logged
railajuu
Standard Member
Kenya
07/07/2004
45 Posts

@Antoine & @Chiefouko

Please get off your L uo high-horses and stop behaving like blind bats!

The glaring question has been raised of you and others who should know better, yaani, the Nyanza PHDs. The place is in dire need of development. Kuruka ruka hapa na matusi will not help you. If u are sick, you are sick, only when u admit can a doctor be called to tibu you.


Message posted by chiefouko on 30/08/2004 at 9:00am - IP Logged
chiefouko
Standard Member
Australia
01/03/2004
207 Posts

@-Juu
who tukana who?, if u have read the Blog then tell me why u think the blog is legit in its case?, coz i didn't get anything legit about it. I said am open for criticism but not jus criticism without base.

By the way -Juu have u even read the BLOG or u chose to porokwa first.

Message posted by railajuu on 30/08/2004 at 9:18am - IP Logged
railajuu
Standard Member
Kenya
07/07/2004
45 Posts

@Chiefouko

Wassup? The blog is too legit man! OO posted here in the Nation Forum because he wanted feed-back from ALL Kenyans, not whining and howling from yr crew. Otherwise he could have posted his essay in Jal uo.com or kisii.com which hv a greater bearing on the issue at hand.

If I were u, I would accept constructive criticism and urge fellow Kenyans to debate the matter. Howcome you were so quiet when OO penned the essay on L uophobia, and you are accusing him????

And yes I hv read this essay and everyother essay OO has published. I mean...who hasen't...?????

Message posted by chiefouko on 30/08/2004 at 9:28am - IP Logged
chiefouko
Standard Member
Australia
01/03/2004
207 Posts

Ra*ilaJuu i hope i catch u be4 u log out.

What makes u say its legit?. Thats my question to u coz u believe it is legit. Then answer my questions am askin Oloo on the above probably i missed somethin.

En Omera, i have already said am open for criticism, jus feed me with ur or Oloos points on backwardness or poverty.

I didn't know everybody reads Oloos essay coz i don't read all of them.

Message posted by Antoine Didi Kembola on 30/08/2004 at 9:32am - IP Logged
Antoine Didi Kembola
Standard Member
Papua New Guinea
23/08/2004
91 Posts

@R@ila juu
This is not criticism..its trying to ridicule the people of Nyanza. I will only stop when you convince me thast Nyanza is the poorest province in kenya and nothing CAN BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH!!!
Hapa siyo kuruka ruka. Nyinyi ndiyo mnarukaruka hapa! Your beloved OO is just out of touch with reality!

Message posted by Antoine Didi Kembola on 30/08/2004 at 9:39am - IP Logged
Antoine Didi Kembola
Standard Member
Papua New Guinea
23/08/2004
91 Posts

English is a foreign language and can be a problem at times. @OO maybe an explanation in kij@kenyan may help you:- Oloo chalo gima wiyi osebiro marach. Neko osemaki kendo chalo gima ionge gi gima inyalo paro kok mana kinyo jogwen'gu. Gima ilaro kod Jol*uo in ema ing'geyo. Wek payuka kae trying to please people here. None of us is here for that unless ni isebedo ochot ma ibiro menyo kae. One more time, Oloo, Grow UP!!

Message posted by chiefouko on 30/08/2004 at 10:35am - IP Logged
chiefouko
Standard Member
Australia
01/03/2004
207 Posts

Hey jamaaz jus to make sure we didn't miss anything from Oloos post thats legit to what the heading is "Nyanza is BACKWARD and POOR- WHY???" lets get a third opinion from other forum memebrs e.g KaranjaW.L, Abdul, CharityWorld, Nja*the, Mosaisi, Nambale, even Jaybee or Capital C etc.. coz i believe their is no points in that BLOG that should bring to light or shade light to L*uo/Nyanza 'backwardness'. If the discussion topic was somethin like "What OO heard about Lake city jamaaz" or "Insigt on Lake City from Kamiti maximum prison" etc then i can not be arguin here. But whatever this jamaa is on is jus Upuzi en makes u/me wonder why did i think so much of him judging from his contributions in the past?. If Kibbs had u en me fooled Oloo did it again.

About Nyanza being poor, I wish to ask ON WHAT SCALE ARE WE PPLE OF NYANZA BEING MEASURED?, the world, Africa, East Africa Or provinces in Kenya? Am sure if its provinces of Kenya.. Nyanza can be ranked as a rich province if we compare potential en not government neglect.

Please somebody help me put this to rest. Coz am almost sure he was tryin hard to make nothin out of nothin.

the url.
http://demokrasia-kenya.blogspot.com/2004/08/poverty-in-nyanza-symptom-of-uneven_26.html

Under topic 2:"2.0. Nyanza is Poor and Backward: Why?
"
en Oloo i challenge to read that again then jibu maswali or u can be a coward en ignore this.

Message posted by Antoine Didi Kembola on 30/08/2004 at 7:05pm - IP Logged
Antoine Didi Kembola
Standard Member
Papua New Guinea
23/08/2004
91 Posts

hey chief, when you invite forum members to discuss something you probably should consider not being very specific to who you want replies from. There are other forum members out there who can be equally good.
@Chief
Enev if you put Nyanza's economy on a scale with other provinces, we will be way up there. Nyanza may not be the richest but is way up there. This is why I say OO should own up to this and apologize(if he's man enough) .
OO cannot be right all the time. he posted this when he probably was high which is perfectly normal but he shouldn't be arguing here.

Message posted by Antoine Didi Kembola on 30/08/2004 at 7:07pm - IP Logged
Antoine Didi Kembola
Standard Member
Papua New Guinea
23/08/2004
91 Posts

Oloo is a coward and has gone into hiding.

F


WELCOME ONYANGO OLOO LOGOUT

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Topic: Nyanza is BACKWARD and POOR- WHY???
Message posted by jamach123 on 30/08/2004 at 7:31pm - IP Logged
jamach123
Standard Member
United States
29/07/2004
112 Posts

@Oloo
YOUM MERU!

Message posted by jamach123 on 30/08/2004 at 7:32pm - IP Logged
jamach123
Standard Member
United States
29/07/2004
112 Posts

I mean YUOM MERU!!

Message posted by chiefouko on 30/08/2004 at 11:51pm - IP Logged
chiefouko
Standard Member
Australia
01/03/2004
207 Posts

Guyz cut the Upuzi!!

lets not call each other names, it degrades the discussion.. lets jus here from members vizuri. Calm the emotions!!

Message posted by OGUDA SUZUKI on 31/08/2004 at 1:05am - IP Logged
OGUDA SUZUKI
Standard Member
Kenya
28/08/2004
8 Posts

@jamach
Calm down. OO messed up but its not worth that name calling.

Message posted by Onyango Oloo on 31/08/2004 at 1:23am - IP Logged
Onyango Oloo
Standard Member
Canada
01/03/2004
175 Posts


Quote: Originally posted by jamach123 on 30/08/2004 I mean YUOM MERU!!




jamach:

to what do i owe this insult to my mother who, by the way, died in december 1980?

did you read the essay or are you one of those gibbering buffoons who react to a posting based on its title/and or the author?

grow up a little. finally when you become an adult, take some time to read the essay beyond the title.

personally, even though i am opposed to the death penalty, i think there should be only ONE exception:

for INTELLECTUAL LAZINESS.

oo
mtl

Message posted by Onyango Oloo on 31/08/2004 at 1:24am - IP Logged
Onyango Oloo
Standard Member
Canada
01/03/2004
175 Posts


Quote: Originally posted by OGUDA SUZUKI on 31/08/2004 @jamach
Calm down. OO messed up but its not worth that name calling.



oguda suzuki:

can you dissect my essay, section by section and DEMONSTRATE to me exactly where i allegedly "messed up"?


oo
mtl

Message posted by aeichener on 31/08/2004 at 1:29am - IP Logged
aeichener
Standard Member
Germany
10/04/2004
151 Posts


Quote: Originally posted by Onyango Oloo on 31/08/2004 did you read the essay or are you one of those gibbering buffoons who react to a posting based on its title/and or the author?


Tsk. Stop asking rhetoric questions. The answer is clear to everybody.

Quote: personally, even though i am opposed to the death penalty, i think there should be only exception: for intellectual laziness.

You have the potential to be a second Tamburlane the Great ;-).

Alexander

Message posted by Onyango Oloo on 31/08/2004 at 1:29am - IP Logged
Onyango Oloo
Standard Member
Canada
01/03/2004
175 Posts


Quote: Originally posted by chiefouko on 30/08/2004 OO

Don't jus assume i din't read the easy, u r now acting like a victim, instead of supportin your points. Did u expect not to be challenged?, en Omera jus because u were in prison doesn't make u a 'know it all' if at all u know, seems u think so much of urself coz of the prison time... jus explain points vizuri.

So how r my distorting ur arguments en what were they?.

- If there is 'GIk*uyuphobia in L*uo community', how does that translate to 'poverty or backwardness'?

- So there was a sect of some lake city jamaaz in prison with u, how does that translate to 'poverty or backwardness'?

Or what was it am supposed to read in that ka blog that was to enlighten me of poverty en backwardness in L*uo/Nyanza?
- The way u were named?, do u think even Kam_anda or Koi*gi would buy that or even care how u were named.

I think yours was a rush to make somethin out of nothin.

JIBU MASWALI OMERA!!..STOP ACTING LIKE A VICTIM COZ U NOT!!




there is NO EVIDENCE, from your retort above, that you read ONE LINE of my essay. If you did, then you obviously did not understand it. Give it another tab. This time, check your assumptions at the door and read the essay with an open mind. And forget about the title for a second. Concentrate on the 11,000 other words that make up the rest of the essay.

Onyango Oloo
Montreal

Message posted by Onyango Oloo on 31/08/2004 at 1:30am - IP Logged
Onyango Oloo
Standard Member
Canada
01/03/2004
175 Posts


Quote: Originally posted by Antoine Didi Kembola on 30/08/2004 @OO
All you're doing now is being unnecessarily defensive. You seem so quick to call your critics stupid and you truly sound very stupid. If u were tortured in jail, then, I guess they left u with very little,if any,upstairs! I guess you now deserve no respect and you better shut the F%uck up!!




let us talk about the essay if you do not mind.

oo
mtl

Message posted by Onyango Oloo on 31/08/2004 at 1:32am - IP Logged
Onyango Oloo
Standard Member
Canada
01/03/2004
175 Posts


Quote: Originally posted by Antoine Didi Kembola on 30/08/2004 @R@ila juu
This is not criticism..its trying to ridicule the people of Nyanza. I will only stop when you convince me thast Nyanza is the poorest province in kenya and nothing CAN BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH!!!
Hapa siyo kuruka ruka. Nyinyi ndiyo mnarukaruka hapa! Your beloved OO is just out of touch with reality!



RIDICULE the people of NYANZA?

You see this is the kind of stupidity that startles me.

I went out of my to do the EXACT OPPOSITE!

Onyango Oloo
Montreal

Message posted by Onyango Oloo on 31/08/2004 at 1:34am - IP Logged
Onyango Oloo
Standard Member
Canada
01/03/2004
175 Posts


Quote: Originally posted by Antoine Didi Kembola on 30/08/2004 hey chief, when you invite forum members to discuss something you probably should consider not being very specific to who you want replies from. There are other forum members out there who can be equally good.
@Chief
Enev if you put Nyanza's economy on a scale with other provinces, we will be way up there. Nyanza may not be the richest but is way up there. This is why I say OO should own up to this and apologize(if he's man enough) .
OO cannot be right all the time. he posted this when he probably was high which is perfectly normal but he shouldn't be arguing here.




mister today i moved to papua new guinea:

so what exactly should i apologize for?????!!!!

oo
mtl

Message posted by WAMBA DIA WAMBA on 31/08/2004 at 1:40am - IP Logged
WAMBA DIA WAMBA
Standard Member
Uganda
30/08/2004
4 Posts

@Onyango Oloo
Nayokite. ozali bosoto. ozali mbula boni?

Message posted by pnn20 on 31/08/2004 at 1:40am - IP Logged
pnn20
Standard Member
United Kingdom
21/03/2004
226 Posts

Onyango Oloo,
This are polite questions please. Why do you only participate in your topics and not in other members' topics much as I owe you all respect? Is that building the nation in partnership or by selfishness? Dont you want to share your valuable ideas with Kenyans of all walks across the world? Dont you want to interact in other topics as well or you lack ideas? Tell me Mr. OO. Tell me.
Regards.
pnn20
London, England
Great Britain

Message posted by WAMBA DIA WAMBA on 31/08/2004 at 1:47am - IP Logged
WAMBA DIA WAMBA
Standard Member
Uganda
30/08/2004
4 Posts

@pnn20
Vous has parleed the realite. Since i joined, OO only speak of himself and him people. That is a good point that vous has brought up.

Message posted by chiefouko on 31/08/2004 at 1:49am - IP Logged
chiefouko
Standard Member
Australia
01/03/2004
207 Posts

This is going nowhere now, next time keep ur uniformed opinions to yourself. I can't even believe i read somewhere on one of ur many posts that u send letters to guyz at the UN, Even THE POPE, Government heads in Kenya, en many other personalities around the globe. Its scary from what i read in that post to imagine what could have been in the letters.

En Omera, If at all u think representing anybody YOUR NOT representing me so stop messing up the name of Kenya from your cofines in Montreal. CONMAN KABISA!!.

I still hope to solicite a third opinion from forum members if that blog is legit. OO is too over himself now acting like he is a victim.

Message posted by Antoine Didi Kembola on 31/08/2004 at 2:01am - IP Logged

Antoine Didi Kembola
Standard Member
Papua New Guinea
23/08/2004
91 Posts

@Chief Ouko
I am 1000% with you. I said it before, OO is a conman and I'm glad you acknowledged that. Maybe he should post the letters he sent to the pope and those other personalities around the globe. I have now re-read that blog and now makes even no more sense! Onyango Oloo is living in another planet and it won't be too long from now before we realise we were dealing with a mad man. Onyango Oloo is a LOSER!

Message posted by railajuu on 31/08/2004 at 2:19am - IP Logged
railajuu
Standard Member
Kenya
07/07/2004
45 Posts

@Antoine

All of you except the Chieths and the Chiefs are 'johnnies come lately'. To understand where OO is coming from, u might need to read all the essays on his blog, listen to the interviews, google the web for articles about him, and trawl the Kenyan discussion sites to see his 'take' on the various subjects being discussed.

Make no mistake, u cannot wish/abuse him away the way u did with @Jaybee. Why are u all complaining (OO uses 'barking') from foreign countries? BECAUSE Y'ALL COULD NOT MAKE ANYTHING OF YR SELVES IN KENYA. YA'LL FAILED IN NYANZA, Y'ALL FAILED IN NAIROBI, AND SO YOU FLED LIKE RATS FROM A SINKING SHIP TO ENJOY YR SUPERFICIAL TRAPPINGS OF 'SUCCESS'. A flat in Melbourne and a Car, repeat that formular in Europe and Americas!!!

Common KENYANS, THIS IS A BIG PROBLEM FOR ALL THE DISTRICTS IN NYANZA. IF OO CONCENTRATED ON NYANZA, He also noted all types of tribes live there! In other words WE are all stakeholders in the decline or success of Nyanza.

Why can't we talk of the hyacinth, aids, failed industries, cult-like following of some leaders, education etc THESE ARE THE PROBLEMS AFFLICTING THE WHOLE OF KENYA NOT NYANZA ALONE. GET A GRIP ON YRSELVES PEOPLE.

Message posted by Antoine Didi Kembola on 31/08/2004 at 2:45am - IP Logged
Antoine Didi Kembola
Standard Member
Papua New Guinea
23/08/2004
91 Posts

@R@ila juu
You might want to minimize this 'Y'ALL' language..its not fashionable anymore! OO tried to potray Nyanza as some doomed place. Tell me about kenyans living anywhere in kenya. That much i knew and its not only the natives of Nyanza that live there. From the kind of getto landuage you speak, I'd like to minimize arguments with you for you sound like another hooligan and I'd be wasting my time arguing with you. Onyango is a sell-out and who like to praise agi*ku*yus like yourself. Ohh, by the way, why go by R@ila juu?? You should re-consider changing your name to KAMANDAJUU!

Message posted by chiefouko on 31/08/2004 at 2:56am - IP Logged
chiefouko
Standard Member
Australia
01/03/2004
207 Posts

Rai*lajuu. WHY DO YOU SAY THE BLOG IS LEGIT?, jus give us what we missed coz u definitely on the same page with OO.

This is a discussion forum not a notice board where u post what u want. In here jamaaz discuss ish But, u guyz are not discussing!!, this imaginatory personality en status u have given OO is not helpful, i agree en am sure Antoine agrees that we have seen better from him.. but, how do u explain this outburst without explanation?. I can only speculate to be (i like this phrase here) "A BLOATED IMAGINATION OF HIMSELF". Na hiyo siyo matusi.

En which leader from Nyanza is following a cult, ehe Who?. Genuine question don't think am being defensive

Message posted by chieth ogwal on 31/08/2004 at 3:01am - IP Logged
chieth ogwal
Standard Member
United States
11/07/2004
39 Posts

@r aila juu
This forum, in my view, has outlived its importance. I have refrained from participating in the recent days owing to the direction the whole forum has taken. You seem to suggest that the chieths and chiefs should be participating...which is wrong. Its not correct to say that only the 'older' people should criticize OO. Some of those newer people are just as good and if the length of time time yuo've been on the forum has anything to do with wisdom, then, onyango Oloo should have been wiser on this issue. On your invitation to bash the newcomers(antoine), I wish to decline. This is the last time you'll be hearing from me in a long time. I'll be cheking on you kids one in a while!

Message posted by njathe on 31/08/2004 at 3:19am - IP Logged
njathe
Standard Member
Kenya
10/07/2004
217 Posts

@Chieth Ogwal, Chief Ouko, Antoine and Agwambo Juu

are u guys DENYING that Nyanza (Kenya) has been economically rundown? Pls look beyond the choice of words, and try to understand the message. To employ the old cliche, Shoot the messenger (If u don't like the message)

@Chief ouko u are right this is a discussion forum, but the amount of bile and animosity spewed here has been amazing.

I know, I know the million dollar Q. is the legitimacy of the blog. BUT WHAT ABOUT THE QUESTION. ISN'T THAT LEGIT?

Message posted by chiefouko on 31/08/2004 at 3:42am - IP Logged
chiefouko
Standard Member
Australia
01/03/2004
207 Posts

Nja*the:: We are not denying Nyanza has been economically rundown, almost everythin around the boarders of Kenya have been economically rundown!.

The word is 'POOR' en 'BACKWARD'. His blog is apparently giving us an answer but its not all its doing is spread more illusion of Nyanz/L*uo province. I don't even there is anything in that Blog that would clearly suggest POVERTY or Backwardness.

QUOTE FROM NJ*ATHE:: "BUT WHAT ABOUT THE QUESTION. ISN'T THAT LEGIT?". If the Question is legit then..

---POOR:: ON WHAT SCALE ARE WE JUDGING NYANZA PROVINCE?
---BACKWARD:: WHAT TO YOU OR OLOO/HIS BLOG IS BACKWARD ABOUT NYANZA?

Thanx Nja*the for challenging in a good way. To OO: u might wanna borrow a leaf from Nja*the

Hey guyz lets not haribu discussions with lugha chafu en on the other side don't transalate an observasion to be Matusi all because of emotions. I enjoy discussions en lately they have been gettin better from what we had jus recently keep it up!!.

Message posted by Antoine Didi Kembola on 31/08/2004 at 3:47am - IP Logged
Antoine Didi Kembola
Standard Member
Papua New Guinea
23/08/2004
91 Posts

I have spent hour reading all these OO stuff and I just realised this man is a conman..I mean a real one!
How can he claim that he(OO) and r@ila are the most vilified names in kenya? Him and kalonzo are almost equally popular. No one know this goon called Onyango oloo..The only one that i knew about was a mad man in our village. Yes, he was arrested so what? How many of us have been arrested? He exploited a 'tragedy' and keeps making money out of it. This guy is not even a kenyan. Born in nakuru lived in Embu, muranga and all those places he listed there. I will personally take it upon myself to contact anyone that OO has been dealing with and expose is conny ways. He's an !diot who has run out of ideas and his latest outburst on Nyanza people expalins all these. OO claims to be the most feared/respected person in kenya just like the president and r @ila,kalonzo(i'm quoting him directly). This may be true only in your dreams. No one knows onyango oloo in kenya. he's kyu*kyu and should change his name to maina wareithi! Onyango shut up. I will have to contact some of yr contacts and see whats next.

Message posted by chiefouko on 31/08/2004 at 3:57am - IP Logged
chiefouko
Standard Member
Australia
01/03/2004
207 Posts

Antoine Keykuyus are Kenyans too. They are all ofended if this jamaa exploits the name of Kenyan pple asumming he thinks he is representing us. Nyathiwa Antoine, lets jus expose OO for what he is en not associate OO to Keykuyus coz they are one of us except Kibbs en his entourage.

Message posted by Antoine Didi Kembola on 31/08/2004 at 5:39am - IP Logged
Antoine Didi Kembola
Standard Member
Papua New Guinea
23/08/2004
91 Posts

@chief
I meant this guy is a conman and might just have misrepresented his name. He's probably not even from Nyanza and nothing to provoke my brothers from other parts of the country. Nothing to insult my kyu*kyu brothers.




WELCOME ONYANGO OLOO LOGOUT

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Topic: Nyanza is BACKWARD and POOR- WHY???
Message posted by Onyango Oloo on 31/08/2004 at 6:46am - IP Logged
Onyango Oloo
Standard Member
Canada
01/03/2004
175 Posts


Quote: Originally posted by pnn20 on 31/08/2004 Onyango Oloo,
This are polite questions please. Why do you only participate in your topics and not in other members' topics much as I owe you all respect? Is that building the nation in partnership or by selfishness? Dont you want to share your valuable ideas with Kenyans of all walks across the world? Dont you want to interact in other topics as well or you lack ideas? Tell me Mr. OO. Tell me.
Regards.
pnn20
London, England
Great Britain




pnn:

that is simply not true. just look at the topics again and you will see my contributions.

these days i try to limit my contributions because i am often accused of trying to take over entire forums by commenting on everything. when i keep a low profile, i get questions similar to yours...

it is really a no win situation for me.

oo
mtl

Message posted by Onyango Oloo on 31/08/2004 at 6:48am - IP Logged
Onyango Oloo
Standard Member
Canada
01/03/2004
175 Posts


Quote: Originally posted by chiefouko on 31/08/2004 This is going nowhere now, next time keep ur uniformed opinions to yourself. I can't even believe i read somewhere on one of ur many posts that u send letters to guyz at the UN, Even THE POPE, Government heads in Kenya, en many other personalities around the globe. Its scary from what i read in that post to imagine what could have been in the letters.

En Omera, If at all u think representing anybody YOUR NOT representing me so stop messing up the name of Kenya from your cofines in Montreal. CONMAN KABISA!!.

I still hope to solicite a third opinion from forum members if that blog is legit. OO is too over himself now acting like he is a victim.



the speed with which you have degenerated leaves me with option but to abandon you to your insane diatribes.

have fun!

oo
mtl

Message posted by Onyango Oloo on 31/08/2004 at 6:49am - IP Logged
Onyango Oloo
Standard Member
Canada
01/03/2004
175 Posts


Quote: Originally posted by Antoine Didi Kembola on 31/08/2004 @Chief Ouko
I am 1000% with you. I said it before, OO is a conman and I'm glad you acknowledged that. Maybe he should post the letters he sent to the pope and those other personalities around the globe. I have now re-read that blog and now makes even no more sense! Onyango Oloo is living in another planet and it won't be too long from now before we realise we were dealing with a mad man. Onyango Oloo is a LOSER!



and yet here you are, the fake wanksta who claims to be in "papua new guinea". when did you move from kwongtaek, south korea?

oo
mtl

Message posted by Onyango Oloo on 31/08/2004 at 6:51am - IP Logged
Onyango Oloo
Standard Member
Canada
01/03/2004
175 Posts


Quote: Originally posted by Antoine Didi Kembola on 31/08/2004 I have spent hour reading all these OO stuff and I just realised this man is a conman..I mean a real one!
How can he claim that he(OO) and r@ila are the most vilified names in kenya? Him and kalonzo are almost equally popular. No one know this goon called Onyango oloo..The only one that i knew about was a mad man in our village. Yes, he was arrested so what? How many of us have been arrested? He exploited a 'tragedy' and keeps making money out of it. This guy is not even a kenyan. Born in nakuru lived in Embu, muranga and all those places he listed there. I will personally take it upon myself to contact anyone that OO has been dealing with and expose is conny ways. He's an !diot who has run out of ideas and his latest outburst on Nyanza people expalins all these. OO claims to be the most feared/respected person in kenya just like the president and r @ila,kalonzo(i'm quoting him directly). This may be true only in your dreams. No one knows onyango oloo in kenya. he's kyu*kyu and should change his name to maina wareithi! Onyango shut up. I will have to contact some of yr contacts and see whats next.




i think i recognize a familiar groupie here. keep it up.

oo
mtl

Message posted by Onyango Oloo on 31/08/2004 at 6:53am - IP Logged
Onyango Oloo
Standard Member
Canada
01/03/2004
175 Posts


Quote: Originally posted by Antoine Didi Kembola on 31/08/2004 @chief
I meant this guy is a conman and might just have misrepresented his name. He's probably not even from Nyanza and nothing to provoke my brothers from other parts of the country. Nothing to insult my kyu*kyu brothers.



antoine didi kembola you are as fake as a three dollar bill. at the appropriate time, i will blow your cover. that was your first public warning.

oo
mtl

Message posted by chiefouko on 31/08/2004 at 7:15am - IP Logged
chiefouko
Standard Member
Australia
01/03/2004
207 Posts

I knew u gonna run away like the coward u are, How come Nja*the shows intelectual maturity en he is capable of advansing the discussion on the right direction.

Ati i have degenerated?, the first time u said am distorting ur arguments then i din't read ur post en now this?. You thought wrong of urself en under estimated our intelligence, Antoine has even exposed some questionable porokwa that u acustomed to.

SO what is left of a coward like you.. Make another post where u say u will never contribute on this forum again en blame it on 'Insane diatribes', chief, Antoine, Nja*the or whoever u wanna blame. Poor Pnn20 he was only being mature about things. To say the truth we don't care if u leave or not (take R@ilaJuu with u if u leaving) en only hope next time do things for the right reason.

To all:: Lets take this discussion a higher level OOs case is kwisha, he is a CONMAN PEKEE.

Lets ask the question Nja*the asked is the Question LEGIT?, Anybody?

Message posted by Karanja W.L on 31/08/2004 at 1:59pm - IP Logged
Karanja W.L
Standard Member
United Kingdom
26/06/2004
78 Posts

To be honest I am yet to read the seemingly long and controversial post by OO. I have been very busy and only occasionally logging in just to quickly update myself with the debates.

I have been following the 'exchange' between OO and different forum members. Since I have not read OOs post, it would not be right for me to take a position.
What I can however say is that I am disappointed by the insult some of the contributors are hurling at OO. Jamach 123 has particularly used a language so foul, going by the translation I have received.

@Chief has been engaging OO in very reasoned argument, and I am a bit disappointed that OO has not been addressing his questions to him.

I said I am yet to read the whole essay, but I find it curious, going by the title, that he can entitle his post in a manner that reminds all of us about Jaybees hate topic and contributions yet I do not remember seeing whether he ever posted anything in opposition to his hate posts.

OO this may be why people are very hard on you! However, the kind of insults being hurled, by @Jamach123 are not warranted at all!

Message posted by Arsenal.com on 31/08/2004 at 2:05pm - IP Logged
Arsenal.com
Standard Member
Kenya
11/11/2003
99 Posts

Your leaders are not doing enough to uplift your status.
They are making too much noise

-----------------
Dennice's Inc. 2003 (C).

Message posted by Antoine Didi Kembola on 31/08/2004 at 7:15pm - IP Logged
Antoine Didi Kembola
Standard Member
Papua New Guinea
23/08/2004
91 Posts

@OO
You did it...run away like a coward. Address the ISSUES! This is some personality contest. Its common here that anyone who disagrees with you is someone else so who are you gonna call me this time, NJ@the? Stop being immature. You seem to have this thing that overrrides your commonsense and you better find out what it is!


antoine didi kembola you are as fake as a three dollar bill. at the appropriate time, i will blow your cover. that was your first public warning.

oo
mtl

[/QUOTE]

Message posted by jamach123 on 31/08/2004 at 10:01pm - IP Logged
jamach123
Standard Member
United States
29/07/2004
112 Posts

@Onyango Oloo
I could have been a little too tough on you but I still maintain that was warranted. The pain you felt is the same as what my people in Nyanza felt. I will only apologize to you after you apologise to my people. You just don't come from nowhere to abuse my people.....No way. I felt it was my responsibility to INSULT you just the same way you tried to do to my people. If you're waiting for an apology from me, then, you may have to wait for a while.

Message posted by abdulmote on 31/08/2004 at 10:29pm - IP Logged
abdulmote
Standard Member
United Kingdom
01/03/2004
112 Posts




Guys, have I missed a point about this? I mean the 'insult' on the people of Nyanza by OO. Please try to be specific and enlighten some of us objectively.

I can promise you my whole hearted support should I agree with you. I am serious about it! And just for your info, I have read the entire OO's long and painful undertaking!

Waiting for your feedback please.




Message posted by barbie on 31/08/2004 at 10:46pm - IP Logged
barbie
Standard Member
United States
01/03/2004
91 Posts

@Abdulmote

Exactly RIGHT. We don't want to know who OO is (though I've seen his pictures on the internet), we don't care to know who Chieth gweno, Chief ouko, or jamach 123 are. Though I hv to confess the idea of unmasking Antoine Didi is quite titillating.

WE JUST WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH. IS NYANZA (KENYA) ECONOMICALLY BACKWARD? IF YES WHY??? IN THAT CASE WE NEED TO DEBATE THE POINTS RAISED BY THE ESSAY PEOPLE!!!


Message posted by ragalo on 31/08/2004 at 11:11pm - IP Logged
ragalo
Standard Member
Canada
05/03/2004
24 Posts

My name is Adongo Ogony, I post stuff on Nationonline by the name Ragalo, which is the name my late grandmother gave me. I put my name because like Oloo I find it convenient to be who I am on and off line. I have no grudge with those who choose cyber names.

Now for goodness sakes, I have ploughed through the 83 responses and counter arguments and forgive me for noticing everybody says lets get to the ISSUES and very soon succumb to the temptation to hurl abuses.

What exactly are the issues OO has raised.

1.Yes Nyanza is poor and backward. Does anybody dispute that? A good part of the people of Nyanza just like many other parts of Kenya and elsewhere in Africa still live in caves. No these are not the downward caves of mediaval ages. Many Kenyans call crazy mud huts their homes for life. To me these are caves only they are above the ground instead of being under. Have you heard when the government talks about housing? They will never mention the plight of millions of Kenyans in the rural areas living in this distardly structures that are not even fit to house poultry. They will talk about housing for civil servants, housing for jail guards and police, husing for the urban middle class who can get loans.

Let me tell you something that I asked University students at a Kamkunji rally at the "Box" (Womens' Hall of Residence" in 1981. I asked the architects and other students in Land Economics and Building Economics why they spend so much time, energy and interlect in figuring out how to build and maintain huge storey buildings in Nairobi and elsewhere when they cannot figure out how their own parents and the average Kenyan can use local materials and design good, livable and affordable housing? If you can answer that question we are well on the way to figuring out the horrors of perpetual poverty and underdelopment in Kenya, Nyanza included.

Here in Canada, where I live temporarily, it is interesting to see the amount of resources they need to build a livable house. The vagaries of weather are such that the walls are thicker than the one I saw in Industrial Area Remand Prison and in Kamiti. They need cooling in summer and heating in winter. A decent livable house in Bondo or Gem needs neither of those. And yet for close to half a century we are unable to develop the technology, resources, expertise to get our people out of the caves. How can we talk about development?

To answer my earlier question, the issue is that in a neocolonial economy the subjects(Kenyans) do not produce wealth(goods and services) for their own benefit and growth as a people but for the benefit of their masters, whether they are chilling in their ranches in Laikipia or counting the loot in the capitals of the world. Why else would we use the best lands in our country to produce so-called cash crops which we never use while we turn around and beg for reject corn from donors?

So for me our backwrdness as an economy is rooted in the international power relations which has relagated our country to a pitiful neocolony. Look at the terms of trade between the South and the North. A cow in the US is subsidized with more money than ten Kenyans earn working hard in the Exploitation Processing Zone(EPZ)

2. On the specific issue of Nyanza let me say two things. First of all we cannot afford a defeatist attitude and say okay we are doomed because of those bad colonialists and their puppets at State House and therefore lets just wallow in poverty. There a million things we can do in Nyanza to uplift the standard of living to great heights.

One thing I think we should really challenge our government about is this whole issue of building the Kenyan physical infrastructure - roads, rail system, bridges, waterways, even schools, hospitals and others. Why do I say this? Beacuse without building a viable infrastructure we are going nowhere in Nyanza and elsewhere.

Now our well known "friend" the grand capitalists did something in the twenties and thirties we should study. When America faced near collapse with 25% of its workforce unemployed and whole cities lining up for soup from charities, they came up with something called the "New Deal". Through this process, the Americans who today tell the world it is not the government but the market that creates jobs did exactly the opposite. With the New Deal the American Treasury unleashed massive expenditure that built some of those grand interstate Highways that some Kenyans glide through today. They went on a mission to modernise all infrastructure in the country, but there was one trick. The money had to be used to creat as much work as possible for those who had lost their jobs.

Imagine if our government could be just a little creative. In the next 5 years or so the government is borrowing in excess of Ksha 50 billion for infrastructure. The first question we should ask is: How much of that money is going to end up in the pockets of Kenyans?

My suggestion(which wouldn't happen) is that we should have ensured that as a country we resort to labour intensive infrastructure construction methods. Lets set conditions that the winning tender will be those who can demonstrate that they will use massive labour, mainly drown from the local communities to build whatever is needed. Some will argue this will be slow. Wrong. Do people remember that during Ukoloni time the wabeberus simply rounded up people and forced them to build roads etc. They were some of the best at the time. The nicest house in Bondo Town is the D.C's residence. It was built in the thirties. There are some magnificient stuff in Bondo today alright, but I tell you every time I look at that joint I always ask myself how did the local labourers just with a few technicians wazungus pull this off? The power of labour my frinds has no limits.

Now imagine that when we building the Bondo Usenge Road(estimated to cost Kshs 400 million) we get as many people from the communities that the road passes through to work and get paid reasonable wages as we build the road. These folks will turn a round and spend that money buying local goods. Machunga, mboga, food etc. That is how you build local economies. You have to give local people some purchasing power. As it is all that money is going to go to contractors whose mandate is to limit wage bill as much as they can and ripp off the taxpayer who will be paying the World Bank for the next fifty years. I was hoping - would insists on the idea of studying the possibility of using cement for roads, particularly if it would enhance the use of more labour. Our biggets asset as a nation is people. If we cannot figure out how to utilize that resource we are in for big trouble.

The last thing I want to say about the possibilities for Nyanza and they are many is fish farming. This is an emerging major industry in the world economy. The world fish stocks in the seas and lakes is dwindling. Nyanza from studies already done is one of the most ideal places for fish farming. There is tremondous amount of fish farming in the west but it is very expensive because of the weather.

With a little help from the govrnment e.g by building fish hatcheries and doing research on keeping the fish healthy as well as some marketing and capital assistance fish farming can be a real boom in places like Nyanza. For one thing it would provide a great breather to the fish stock in Nam Lolwe and would provide food security for people in the region as well as provide a major export. Are we going to see any developments in that area I doubt it. Munyao the fisheries minister probably doesn't even know which direction Nyanza is unless he taken ther by helicopter.

Finally we need to modernise agriculture. The idea of people using jembes and hoes isn't going to cut it in the twenty first century. How about providing a pool of tractors for poor farmers who can't afford them from the open market. It was done in the seventies and worked pretty well.


And then the way we waste food. You to Gem, OO's joint during the mango harvest season and you can buy a bag for five bucks. Most of the stuff rots because we can't eat them all. What heppened to small investment to turn mangoes,ornages etc into juice instead of drinking the awful juice colouring they sell in Kenya.

Yes our people are poor but our country is not

Message posted by chiefouko on 01/09/2004 at 1:08am - IP Logged
chiefouko
Standard Member
Australia
01/03/2004
207 Posts

ABDUL:: OOs Case judge from what u read if thats true or if at all it gives u insight on what the topic is?.

I HOPE OOs case has now been put to rest en lets go to higher level.

To Nj*athe en those who are willing to advance this discussion to a useful point en asked the QUESTION:: 'IS NYANZA POOR EN BACKWARD?' lets forget OOs en deal with the Question.

First to Ragalo:: To you the thatched house is a cave?, en thats your major point as to why Nyanza is backward?. Abdul points like what Ragalo is on about now is what translates to me en many others as insults.

Its Easy for Ragalo in Canada to call the thatched house a 'cave' coz he is comparing Bondo to Canada what chance does even the whole Kenya has against Canada. My friend Ragalo u said
QUOTE::"I asked the architects and other students in Land Economics and Building Economics why they spend so much time, energy and interlect in figuring out how to build and maintain huge storey buildings in Nairobi and elsewhere when they cannot figure out how their own parents and the average Kenyan can use local materials and design good, livable and affordable housing? If you can answer that question we are well on the way to figuring out the horrors of perpetual poverty and underdelopment in Kenya, Nyanza included.".

Points i want u guyz to note from that QUOTE is;
-- Average Kenyan:: (because we talking about Bondo think Bondo not Nairobi)
-- Local materials:: (Remember the local material in Bondo not hardware stores in Nairobi)
-- Livable and affordable housing::

Ragalo, when i think of this points like this i believe ur very wrong to assume the thatched house is not livable and affordable because ur now in canada. I am lucky to have seen better but, if i look closely the houses you are talkin about how long does it take their owners to pay?, MORTGAGE PAYMENT is a big thing in this side of the world. WHat chance does that AVERAGE KENYAN in Bondo has to pay a university student architect, buy nails, pay constructors en whatever local material u assume is in BONDO!!. EN YOU WANNA TALK AFFORDABILITY?, who is fooling who?. Why do we assume the thatched house is not made out of local materials. I don't wanna go on about that much coz i believe u have been away for too long u forget the AVERAGE KENYAN in BONDO. I DONT EVEN KNOW WHAT TO MAKE OF THIS.. QUOTE:: "Yes our people are poor but our country is not". Can somebody help me here!!. Ragalo Rank the order in which u think other Kenyans fair en we probably gonna think jus like u.

Whats the deal with roads en fruit juices?.
FRUIT JUICES:: Am even glad u know Nyanza has can produce alot of fruits coz this point is gonna help me when i start talkin Nyanza Economy. QUOTE::"What heppened to small investment to turn mangoes,ornages etc into juice instead of drinking the awful juice colouring they sell in Kenya." here are u still thinking Bondo is canada or U have come to ur senses its the AVERAGE MAN in BONDO en u got the nerves to call his only income "awful juice colouring they sell in Kenya".

ROADS:: Please don't blame the poor state of roads on the Average nyanza jamaa. Even Nyanza leaders can't be blamed on that the alone gover should bare the blame. Even jamaaz in Tetu with their coffee en 6 billion debt written off still need roads. So don't blame it on Nyanza.

I gotta go back to work, i will get in contact with u guyz soon. Ragalo stop thinkin too big like Kenya is Canada or everybody has a job en can afford basics life needs. This examples about America en 25% unemployment en the solutions they made would be an achievement on its own for my country. Lets make small steps first.

Barbie a challenge for you coz i don't wanna make this a place of shooting questions at Nyanza jamaaz without base. "WHAT DO U KNOW ABOUT THE ECONOMY OF NYANZA?, DO YOU THINK ITS BACKWARD OR NOT? AND WHY", i said lets take this to higher levels hope we all play on this fairly not to degenerate to foolishness. Barbie i promise to talk to u when u talk to us.

i gotta go!!

Message posted by Kori on 01/09/2004 at 1:47am - IP Logged
Kori
Standard Member
Kenya
01/03/2004
67 Posts

It appears that unless something is utter and flirtering is is all nonsense to some. What ever this OO man said what has followed is all scorn by most. I have read one member saying that Nyanya is not the poorest province and the only place to compare nyanza with was North eastern province. Giant Among dwarfs? W

ith due respect NE province is a semi-desert but the hard work has made them survive all the hardship inspite of the "accident of nature".

OO didnot talk of Nyanza as a particular tribe but as a micro-kenya with most if not all tribes present. So he spoke about "his" people, he doesnot deserve the insults.

Kenyans wanted freedom of expression but never figured it would "backfire". The freedom for insults appears to come as a package. This I say is backward mentality where whoever shouts the loudests wins. This atitude, if not anything else would make OO say "see what I said?"

Sad to see that, no matter how intelligent @chiefouko tries to make this debate many "throw the spanner into the works".

Message posted by barbie on 01/09/2004 at 2:16am - IP Logged
barbie
Standard Member
United States
01/03/2004
91 Posts

@Chiefouko

Let me talk a little about the caves. Even in Nairobi, we know that building codes are too stringent. Why can they not be safely loosened so that the GOK/Other Partners can provide better housing that is safe. After all, I agree with Ragalo it neither snows nor gets too hot at the equator, why do we keep such stringent European (English) standards?

My forays into the countryside has left me with an impression of shambas dotted with millions of little mud huts, strewn all over the compounds, as families move from hut to hut in their shamba as the former hovel collapses. TRULY these are eyesores and examples of lack of development and they need to GO.

We hv the brainpower to device PERMANENT Housing that is cost-effective. Why should we resort to live in hulking, rusting metal containers (Abandoned by western shipping lines) that degrade our environment yet we hv thinkers???

@Chief

you know our generation did not fight for Uhuru, we do not seem likely to rule Kenya any time soon, WHY CAN'T WE (RAGALO, OO AND OTHER PROGRESSIVES) BUSY OURSELVES WITH HOW TO IMPROVE OUR STANDARD OF LIVING????

I AM SORRY, BUT I AGREE WHOLEHEARTELDY WITH RAGALO THE HUT ARE AN EYESORE AND A HEALTH HAZARD (TOO EASILY PENETRATED BY RATS, SNAKES & OTHER VERMIN) AND THEY SHOULD GO SOONER THAN LATER.

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